Saxophones Conn Low A baritone serial number help

[riverbendhome]

Hi, Wonder if someone can help in my quest to figure out the age of my Conn Low A bari. I bought it on Ebay as an 11M, advertiesed as a 1969. The 7 digit serial number is the first hurdle, I don't find any 7 digits in the Conn history, PLUS there is a V after the 7 digits, which I THINK I have come to learn means it was a factory 2nd. No worries there, I got it at a good price and it plays great top to bottom. Where the 11m should be, there is only what seems to be marks where a tool, a grinding wheel maybe, removed it but the serial # remains.

I've read online that there were times that 6 digits actually followed 7 digits? Regardless, great horn, great tone, really good shape for it's age, whatever that is. I'll add pics and if someone can help solve this mystery I'll reward you with a giant attaboy or girl.

Thanks and God bless, Robert in Illinois

 

[riverbendhome]

Sorry, newbie here, the serial # might be helpful, it's 4236301 V. The V is obviously etched in a slightly different manner than the stamped numbers of the serial # itself. I will add pics if I can figure out how. Robert

 

[Jeanette]

7 Images, Video & Audio

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cafesaxophone.com

Jx

 

[thomsax]

A serial number with 7 digits was used by UMI. # 42 30001 was a sax made in 1992? Conn replaced the 11M (low A ) with 13M(low A) in c 1995.

 

[JayeNM]

Yup, it is still a Conn 11M, as UMI actually made 11M's and 12M's (in the USA) in the 80's and 90's. They also made 16M's that late.

100% True.

This is how LONG these models had their run. People think they vanished after Mexico, but UMI returned the tooling to Elkhart and fabricated these horns.

SO....Robert...the auction description was incorrect in stating it is a '69. However...it IS a Conn US-made 11M...and having serviced a whole bunch of 11M and 12Ms from various eras...its design is really the exact same as a '69.

So, if all other aspects are satisfactory to you...then be pleased with your purchase. Even in the 90's, these were still good horns.

(I have never personally seen an UMI Conn bighorn labeled 13M...I have seen a few labeled- oddly enough - 14M).

 

[thomsax]

The Conn Artist 13M replaced the 11M and Conn Artist 14M replaced 12M. Some of the 13M and 14M had rolled tone holes. I think the tube was the same over the years. Maybe they did changes on the neck? I never seen or played a 13M or 14M. King Model 682 low A and King Model 680 low Bb were roughly the same sax. Here is some info about Conn/King UMI made saxes. 1998 catalog. Made in USA (Nogales, Arizona). Maybe these late models helped UMI the increase the value of the company. It was possible to make saxes in Nogales, USA!!!!!!!

 

[JayeNM]

The Conn Artist 13M replaced the 11M and Conn Artist 14M replaced 12M. Some of the 13M and 14M had rolled tone holes. I think the tube was the same over the years. Maybe they did changes on the neck? I never seen or played a 13M or 14M. King Model 682 low A and King Model 680 low Bb were roughly the same sax. Here is some info about Conn/King UMI made saxes. 1998 catalog. Made in USA (Nogales, Arizona). Maybe these late models helped UMI the increase the value of the company. It was possible to make saxes in Nogales, USA!!!!!!!

Ah, OK makes sense, Yes I have played a 14M once, they are nice instruments but they only existed a very short time.

My question to you (sorry for thread digression, Robert)...are you certain these were made in AZ ? My understanding is when UMI returned fabrication to US, it was all done at the Armstrong, Elkhart factory. If you have some info showing Nogales, Arizona was still operating in the 90's, I'd much appreciate having a look at that).

I know there were 12M's which were also labeled Armstrong during the same period, give or take, as the OP's horn.

 

[thomsax]

Ah, OK makes sense, Yes I have played a 14M once, they are nice instruments but they only existed a very short time.

My question to you (sorry for thread digression, Robert)...are you certain these were made in AZ ? My understanding is when UMI returned fabrication to US, it was all done at the Armstrong, Elkhart factory. If you have some info showing Nogales, Arizona was still operating in the 90's, I'd much appreciate having a look at that).

I know there were 12M's which were also labeled Armstrong during the same period, give or take, as the OP's horn.

You can never be sure until you*ve seen it with your own eyes! Or heard it from a relible source. According to UMI info from the late 90's: "UMI has three manufacturing facilities. One is at the corporate headquarters in Elkhart, which turns out flutes, piccolos, double-reeds and stringed instruments, and which is home to the company’s accessory warehouse. Another manufacturing center is in Eastlake, Ohio, which produces brass instruments and which, after a couple of expansions, is now the largest single brass instrument manufacturing facility in North America. The third center, in Nogales, Ariz., makes clarinets and saxophones".

 

[JayeNM]

Hmmmm....interesting, because I had another UMI-interested friend who actually had managed to track down a former Conn/UMI employee and in email communications she had said that a certain horn he was trying to get info on (9M I believe) had been produced in Elkhart....

 

[thomsax]

It's hard to get information about the old saxophone world!?!?! My friend, a former tech that learned the job at SML 1968-1971, is very silent when we talk about what was going on at SML. Silence is not a bad thing.? Still great saxes. A 11M is a good bari. Nogales or Elkhart, who cares? But I don't like when they use Elkhart to take out a higher price: And when "Mexico" is similar with bad saxes, trouble ... .

@riverbendhome You have a good bari. I would like to see some pictures.

 

[JayeNM]

It's hard to get information about the old saxophone world!?!?! My friend, a former tech that learned the job at SML 1968-1971, is very silent when we talk about what was going on at SML. Silence is not a bad thing.? Still great saxes. A 11M is a good bari. Nogales or Elkhart, who cares? But I don't like when they use Elkhart to take out a higher price: And when "Mexico" is similar with bad saxes, trouble ... .

Agreed, but unfortunately that is the way the market views things. I can overhaul a '69 12M or 16M Elkhart USA and the same models '71 Mexico ones....and I know I have done the exact same scope of work and everything has been taken care of and the horn will now play reliably....but the Mexico one is still going to fetch 25% less than the Elkhart ones. Makes very little sense sometimes....

 

[kmxj82]

Hello , I just acquired a Conn Baritone M13 Serial Number 742813 . Its was almost certainly manufactured in Nogalas, AZ but I can't seem to find the serial number listed anywhere. The bell engravings look just like the M13 photos in this link. Any additional info would be great. Thank you !!

https://reverb.com/au/item/2531938-...4_1777169765_1101d37d2b05db475f9bcdf01e7be872

 

[thomsax]

An UMI #742814 "Conn 13M" baritone to low A, is probably made around 1995 in Nogales, AZ. It's based on a Conn 11M to low A. The low B is a cylindrical section added to a low Bb bari bell. two ways to play the low A. With your left thumb or with your left hand little finger. The Conn 14M is a baritone to low Bb. UMI made saxes with rolled tones again after a long break.

I have seen an "Armstrong" baritone to low A but never "King Model 682" UMI owned Armstong and King as well so I guess they were are the same saxes as the 13M.

 

[JayeNM]

Hello , I just acquired a Conn Baritone M13 Serial Number 742813 . Its was almost certainly manufactured in Nogalas, AZ but I can't seem to find the serial number listed anywhere. The bell engravings look just like the M13 photos in this link. Any additional info would be great. Thank you !!

https://reverb.com/au/item/2531938-...4_1777169765_1101d37d2b05db475f9bcdf01e7be872

Its cousin the 14M is currently on eFlay.

It is an 11m body with some updated keywork, particulatly the pinky table.

could be anywhere late 80s to late 90s

USA made but, hard to determine whether Nogales or Indiana or Ohio tho. Henkin bought King, Conn, and Armstrong I think. Moved Conn production back to US, but is unclear whether US Nogales factory was ever re-opened.

Conns of this era were believed to be made at the Indiana or Ohio factories of King and Armstrong, both of which always remained operational from 70's-2004. I would guess this is from either of those.

@stocker over on Sax On Web has a good handle on the history of 80-90s Conns, you can go there and ask...highlight his username in your post, he will probably chime in

 

[Pete Thomas]

It is an 11m body with some updated keyword, particulatly the pinky table.

Is an 11m body any different to 12m apart from the low A bell extension?

 

[JayeNM]

Is an 11m body any different to 12m apart from the low A bell extension?

No, same design

 

[thomsax]

Why did UMI introduced the 13M, same design as 11M, with a design from 1968? 20 years after Conn discontinued the the 11M in 1973/1974.

 

[thomsax]

Dr Paul Cohen wrote about Conn 11M, "The American Low A Baritone" (Vintage Saxophone Revisted in Saxophone Journal vol 21 #2 Sept/Oct 1996)

The baritone specialist, Lee Patrick removed the low a A mechanism and played the 11M as a 12M.

UMI was making Conn 13M (low A) when Paul Cohen wrote his article.

We use to say that Conn 11M was the first american bari to low A. It was introduced in 1968. When did Wurlitzer introduced the low A "The Martin Magna Baritone"? Wurlitzer "took over" Martin c 1964.