Playing the saxophone C2# and A3 B3

[MarkSax]

I just found out that on my Martin Comm 3 where the C# is flat on open C#, I could use 8ve key plus LH3. It works! And more in tune. For A3 and B3 which are both more than 20 cts flat from my G3 embouchure I am tightening my embouchure and/or curling my tongue upwards to get both in tune.
Anyone else has these problems or using these tricks? Any tips on other ways to achieve these notes in tune? Sax was tech’ed last year. Thanks.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Are you saying that just above the stave, A, B and C# are all flat ?
Push on and / or use more air.

In my experience, tightening the embouchure almost always results in a strangled sound. Voicing with the tongue can bring notes up sharper a little, but it sounds like your sax is flatter up top and sharper downstairs.

Flatness can be a real problem, sharpness less-so; and sharpness is perceived less as flatness - a tad sharp can give “zing” or “topspin” as some lead trumpet players call it. Flatness is just flat.

The fingering fix sounds awkward.

 

[MarkSax]

A and B above the stave, or high A and B, but C# below D, or middle C#. I tried pushing more air but for an ex-smoker I run out of breath very quickly. Plus Middle D amd E are sharp so have to play with my embouchure relaxed coming from a flat C# played tight. I feel like a grimacing clown. I’ve never played Yams or Yanis but I am told they play in tune over the whole scale with little effort, is that true?

 

[turf3]

If short tube notes are flat, and long tube notes are sharp (which is exactly what you're describing) push on, play lower on the input pitch, and improve airstream support.

A Martin has excellent intonation by design; it's not the horn; you don't need to add a bunch of alternate fingerings.

The saxophone is not an electronic keyboard, you don't just push the buttons and the notes come out. YOU have to master the blowing of the thing.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I’ve never played Yams or Yanis but I am told they play in tune over the whole scale with little effort, is that true?

Fairly true, but same applies to a Committee III.

A little effort is required on all saxophones.

 

[turf3]

I’ve never played Yams or Yanis but I am told they play in tune over the whole scale with little effort, is that true?

Here's the truth, that people who want to sell you stuff don't want you to hear.

Pretty much 100% of saxophones made since 1920 - certainly in soprano alto tenor and baritone voices - play exceedingly well in tune when blown properly and matched with a mouthpiece of reasonable design.

There are some basses that have "anomalies", since bass sax production rates were never very high so there wasn't nearly as much opportunity to wring out the designs in the early years of the 20th century. There may also be a few oddballs like the King Saxello or the Conn-o-sax that, again, have extremely low production numbers and might have some anomalies due to unusual construction. Although, in the defense of the Saxello, the same people who claim it plays out of tune are the same people who'll claim things like "Holtons are terrible horns" or "all old sopranos play way out of tune" or "you don't need a large chamber mouthpiece on that 1920 baritone, just solder a pipe on the end of the neck".

With a Martin C3, use a normal mouthpiece (Meyer, Selmer, Link, Brilhart type designs), learn how to blow it, and it'll play beautifully in tune for you. There's no better saxophone ever made. Many are as good, but none is better.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Here's the truth, that people who want to sell you stuff don't want you to hear.

Pretty much 100% of saxophones made since 1920 - certainly in soprano alto tenor and baritone voices - play exceedingly well in tune when blown properly and matched with a mouthpiece of reasonable design.

There are some basses that have "anomalies", since bass sax production rates were never very high so there wasn't nearly as much opportunity to wring out the designs in the early years of the 20th century. There may also be a few oddballs like the King Saxello or the Conn-o-sax that, again, have extremely low production numbers and might have some anomalies due to unusual construction. Although, in the defense of the Saxello, the same people who claim it plays out of tune are the same people who'll claim things like "Holtons are terrible horns" or "all old sopranos play way out of tune" or "you don't need a large chamber mouthpiece on that 1920 baritone, just solder a pipe on the end of the neck".

With a Martin C3, use a normal mouthpiece (Meyer, Selmer, Link, Brilhart type designs), learn how to blow it, and it'll play beautifully in tune for you. There's no better saxophone ever made. Many are as good, but none is better.

Without knowledge of the history, logic dictates that if decent intonation was achieved long ago then any prototype trying something new but being of problematic intonation wouldn’t last the test of time, or have even been put into production.

I don’t think that much was significantly changed to the bore shape or size to warrant such a change in characteristics; unlike the clarinet which was virtually re-imagined with a far larger bore size (yet similar length) taking it from a concert pitch instrument to a far more powerful one albeit now pitched down a tone in Bb.

 

[thomsax]

I also think Martin Committee saxes have even scales. I use to take a look at the original mpc , if possible, when I try to find mouthpices to old saxes.

Here is a *Martin* alto mouthpiece that I guess was the the mouthpice that came along with the sax when it was new. A 1957/1958 "The Martin Alto". I think my Martin Committee plays best with a medium/small chamber mpc. So the "big round chamber mouthpiece" is not working for me. There are better mouthpieces like Brilhart for my alto. I don't play alto so often so the Martin ** is ok.

 

[JayeNM]

how flat is C# ?

IMHO, 20 cents flat on altissimo is becoming close to being not sonically noticeable...if you can close that gap to 10 cents.

Same on C# open. If C# open is already less than 15 flat, and palm D, Eb, E, F are already decent...there's not much of a problem really.

FWIW I do not think tightening up on Altissimo just a bit is actually problematic if the result is intonation closer to the zone....

Now if you had to do that on every note from say G2 and up, that'd be different.

I also find the fingering solely G key on C# an interesting discovery...

Mouthpiece or embouchure adjustment or airflow could all be reasonable Rx's

 

[turf3]

Altissimo doesn't figure into it. His third space C#, A and B above the staff are flat, fourth line D and fourth space E are sharp. Short tube notes flat, long tube notes sharp. The sounding length is too long for the tone hole spacing. Push and play flatter - to do which, you have to improve airstream support so you can stop pinching with the embouchure. And if you're using a teeny chamber piece, a larger MP chamber will help a LOT to get there.

how flat is C# ?

IMHO, 20 cents flat on altissimo is becoming close to being not sonically noticeable...if you can close that gap to 10 cents.

Same on C# open. If C# open is already less than 15 flat, and palm D, Eb, E, F are already decent...there's not much of a problem really.

FWIW I do not think tightening up on Altissimo just a bit is actually problematic if the result is intonation closer to the zone....

Now if you had to do that on every note from say G2 and up, that'd be different.

I also find the fingering solely G key on C# an interesting discovery...

Mouthpiece or embouchure adjustment or airflow could all be reasonable Rx's

s

 

[Pete Effamy]

how flat is C# ?

IMHO, 20 cents flat on altissimo is becoming close to being not sonically noticeable...if you can close that gap to 10 cents.

Same on C# open. If C# open is already less than 15 flat, and palm D, Eb, E, F are already decent...there's not much of a problem really.

FWIW I do not think tightening up on Altissimo just a bit is actually problematic if the result is intonation closer to the zone....

Now if you had to do that on every note from say G2 and up, that'd be different.

I also find the fingering solely G key on C# an interesting discovery...

Mouthpiece or embouchure adjustment or airflow could all be reasonable Rx's

It's not altissimo Jaye, it's what clarinettists call the Clarion (mid) range - so not high. And I disagree, 20 cents is a fair bit.

 

[JayeNM]

It's not altissimo Jaye, it's what clarinettists call the Clarion (mid) range - so not high. And I disagree, 20 cents is a fair bit.

my mistake, I misread that.

Regarding 20 cents, note I never wrote it is acceptable or small. I was pointing out merely that if only 20 cents...it is not that dramatic that it cannot be resolved with some relatively minor adjustments. If you make 20 cents 12 cents...IMHO you are 'there' for most musical contexts...if you get it to 10 or below you are gold (I know you do not agree with that but I feel realistically few listeners, even musicians, possess that sort of pitch discernment in most genre contexts)

 

[Pete Effamy]

my mistake, I misread that.

Regarding 20 cents, note I never wrote it is acceptable or small. I was pointing out merely that if only 20 cents...it is not that dramatic that it cannot be resolved with some relatively minor adjustments. If you make 20 cents 12 cents...IMHO you are 'there' for most musical contexts...if you get it to 10 or below you are gold (I know you do not agree with that but I feel realistically few listeners, even musicians, possess that sort of pitch discernment in most genre contexts)

Ah ok.
Regarding the amount of variance in pitch or “being off” - it depends on what is being played and in what sort of instrumentation. Sometimes, being bang in tune (according to digital measurements) can sound really off. So in some shape or form we agree, but sometimes, even a few cents, certainly flat, can be really noticeable - especially classically.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Sometimes, being bang in tune (according to digital measurements) can sound really off.

I agree totally, especially when things like blues, Appalachian tuning or just intonation come into effect. 20 cents pfooey! I’ll see your 20 and raise you 29.