Brass alloy

[turf3]

A primary factor has to be ease of repair (which also ties in with ease of manufacture).
Things have to be fitted to the body such that they are strong enough to withstand use and (some) abuse.

And, yet, repairable with reasonable ease. So, for example, brass is spectacularly good at being soft soldered and hard soldered at reasonably low temperatures with a minimum of distortion. Its yield strength is such that (for example) key arms can be made adequately stiff, yet still can be bent by hand to correct damage.

Alternate materials for the body and the mechanism have both advantages and disadvantages. The only alternate material usages I'm familiar with that have been successful are the substitution of sterling silver for body tubes (no actual advantage other than looking pretty and allowing a much higher price, but the disadvantages are minimal) and solid nickel alloy for keywork (more wear resistant, more resistant to bending, but a bit more difficult in the manufacturing and service operations like swaging, due to these very characteristics).

Hairy-eared engineers, like myself, and like the engineers from whom I learned, will tell the less experienced, don't come to me with exotic materials and exotic processes till you've thoroughly explored the common materials - mild steel, 6061 aluminum, brass, copper, glass, leather, wood, paper, corrugated fiberboard, etc.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Hairy-eared engineers, like myself, and like the engineers from whom I learned, will tell the less experienced, don't come to me with exotic materials and exotic processes till you've thoroughly explored the common materials - mild steel, 6061 aluminum, brass, copper, glass, leather, wood, paper, corrugated fiberboard, etc.

Aluminium turns up every now and again, such as on the Eubel flutes/pics.

 

[mizmar]

(That's how woodwind instruments work.)

(That'll teach me not be cursory when commenting in the environment of engineers!)

 

[Woodpad]

So who here thinks that the material that's 14 MILLION times stiffer, is going to have any effect on the behavior of the air?

Nice calculation but a bit of topic. The Young modulus measurement is only introduced as a non-destructive method to measure changes in the structure of brass as in:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/D-Li-2/publication/325004075_Understanding_the_Effect_of_Plastic_Deformation_on_Elastic_Modulus_of_Metals_Based_on_a_Percolation_Model_with_Electron_Work_Function/links/5b14003aa6fdcc4611e0ca60/Understanding-the-Effect-of-Plastic-Deformation-on-Elastic-Modulus-of-Metals-Based-on-a-Percolation-Model-with-Electron-Work-Function.pdf

The changes in the young modules of brass by hammering and annealing are not extremely large, but they can be measured.

 

[turf3]

"Due to differences in structure brass has a wide range in elasticity as measured by the Young modulus.
There are some non-destructive measuring methods."

"All of them. When you have a vibrating structure the elasticity is elemental in how the energy is converted."

Are you saying that Young's modulus variations are a way to evaluate the level of work hardening in brass, or are you saying that Young's modulus variations have an actual acoustical effect on a saxophone?

Also, what do you mean "wide range"? in modulus?

If, and I do mean "if", someone wanted to know the degree of work hardening in a saxophone body, the only way to know the spec of the sheet brass the factory buys from the metals distributor would be to ask them, and they're not going to tell you. The after-processing degree of work hardening (subsequent to annealing, brazing, and forming operations) is something that you're going to have to test, and you're going to have to test it in multiple locations because the degree of forming varies quite a bit around the horn.

The real takeaway for me is that, just like I've been saying for many years, the chance that any saxophone manufacturer has, does, or will create an exotic alloy for the body and keys of the horn, as opposed to specifying a standard alloy available at the metals distributor down the road, is essentially zero.

 

[turf3]

Aluminium turns up every now and again, such as on the Eubel flutes/pics.

Yeah, but it's a pain to work with. Soldering to Al is real tetchy. You get the filler metal to flow about half a degree before you make a hole in the workpiece. And the stuff's so conductive it's tough to get it up to temp.

TIG welding posts to an Al body would be "interesting" but hardly a cost effective method, I think. Do those old Al flutes use the same concept as wooden flutes where individual posts are threaded into the body and ribs are screwed down? The few pictures I've seen of the Al flutes, the wall thicknesses looked similar to those of wood flutes.

 

[SaxBoss]

Looking forward to day we can 3D print brass. Not the action so much, but more the bell and body. We could try a few different neck designs as we build them?

 

[Stephen Howard]

Yeah, but it's a pain to work with. Soldering to Al is real tetchy. You get the filler metal to flow about half a degree before you make a hole in the workpiece. And the stuff's so conductive it's tough to get it up to temp.

TIG welding posts to an Al body would be "interesting" but hardly a cost effective method, I think. Do those old Al flutes use the same concept as wooden flutes where individual posts are threaded into the body and ribs are screwed down? The few pictures I've seen of the Al flutes, the wall thicknesses looked similar to those of wood flutes.

You can get Al soft solder - I've had a bunch of it for years. Needs a special flux.

The pillars/posts are threaded into the Uebel's thick body, just like on a clarinet.

It's not a fantastic flute (though I quite like it) and the two main things it has going for it is that the keys are nice and large...and it's hefty enough to use as a club in a bar fight.

 

[Dr G]

Nice calculation but a bit of topic. The Young modulus measurement is only introduced as a non-destructive method to measure changes in the structure of brass as in:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/D-Li-2/publication/325004075_Understanding_the_Effect_of_Plastic_Deformation_on_Elastic_Modulus_of_Metals_Based_on_a_Percolation_Model_with_Electron_Work_Function/links/5b14003aa6fdcc4611e0ca60/Understanding-the-Effect-of-Plastic-Deformation-on-Elastic-Modulus-of-Metals-Based-on-a-Percolation-Model-with-Electron-Work-Function.pdf

The changes in the young modules of brass by hammering and annealing are not extremely large, but they can be measured.

“Detected” is a better word for the changes in the elastic response. What does it have to do with discriminating between old and modern alloys of brass (of which there is very little difference)?

The Youngs Modulus is a function of atomic packing and bond strength. Impurities and inclusions make little difference - especially in low concentrations.

 

[mizmar]

...but a bit of topic

What is the topic?

 

[turf3]

“Detected” is a better word for the changes in the elastic response. What does it have to do with discriminating between old and modern alloys of brass (of which there is very little difference)?

The Youngs Modulus is a function of atomic packing and bond strength. Impurities and inclusions make little difference - especially in low concentrations.

I can tell you.

It has nothing to do with it.

The question that was asked, and answered, was "of what alloys are some various saxophone bodies made?"

A secondary question not asked but which arose in the course of the discussion, was "to what extent is there work hardening in sax bodies due to the various forming operations?" Then there was this paper which indicated that extensive plastic deformation of the surface and near surface of specimens can cause changes in the modulus of elasticity. Of course, that's decades of development and calibration away from being an actual non-destructive test to determine how much work hardening has occurred. From detecting changes in E on samples treated in a way that results in plastic deformation, to developing reliable accurate test methods to measure E and from that determine how much strain has been applied to a piece, a piece that's not a controlled sample but rather material bought as rolled sheet from a warehouse, then subjected to various forming, annealing, soldering, brazing, etc., processes - well, that's a long long leap.

I'd suggest that if you want meaningful data on how much work hardening occurs in various areas of the saxophone body (and of course it'll be different from manufacturer to manufacturer), something like a microVickers test applied at various locations would be a far better and more reliable way to determine this. I can see that in various places of a sax body you might have regions with work hardening that would correspond to quarter hard, half hard, three quarters hard sheets. It might be of interest to a manufacturing engineer attempting to solve a problem of intermittent material fracture during forming of a saxophone, to do something like this. You might well find out that this one area has a lot of work hardening, even though you didn't expect it, and THAT's why it's occasionally tearing, and then decide to apply some local annealing.

Of course any such information is propietary to the company, and probably has a narrow range of applicability anyway.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I can see that in various places of a sax body you might have regions with work hardening that would correspond to quarter hard, half hard, three quarters hard sheets. It might be of interest to a manufacturing engineer attempting to solve a problem of intermittent material fracture during forming of a saxophone, to do something like this. You might well find out that this one area has a lot of work hardening, even though you didn't expect it, and THAT's why it's occasionally tearing, and then decide to apply some local annealing.

Some ten or so years ago it was possible to see the results of such a miscalculation, in tonehole walls on Chinese horns.
The most typical (Griffith's) crack propagated from the rim of the hole down to the base - but on occasion you'd sometimes see enclosed cracks around the base.
The 'fix' for this was either filling the crack with superglue...or (and I kid you not) slapping a piece of Elastoplast over it.

 

[turf3]

Well, my bass sax has a big crack in the loop, in that 180 degree turn where the water accumulates. I discovered it after I'd done all the repair work with soldering, had all the keywork back on, etc. I slapped a couple pieces of aluminum tape over it and it's still that way. Someday when the work's all done I'll solder it closed properly. Or not.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Well, my bass sax has a big crack in the loop, in that 180 degree turn where the water accumulates. I discovered it after I'd done all the repair work with soldering, had all the keywork back on, etc. I slapped a couple pieces of aluminum tape over it and it's still that way. Someday when the work's all done I'll solder it closed properly. Or not.

It's not uncommon to see cracks around such areas; much the same thing sometimes turns up on old baritones around the water key location. It's probably down to either work hardening (it's an area that often get damaged and repaired) or perhaps de-zincification.
Best bet is a patch rather than infilling the crack....though JB-Weld does an absolutely cracking job. Excuse pun.

 

[Targa]

What is the topic?

Nuts

 

[Stephen Howard]

Nuts

Brass nuts.

 

[mizmar]

This thread is cracked.
Someone needs to drill a stop-holl in it

 

[SaxBoss]

Brass nuts.

Of a monkey?

 

[David Dorning]

Yep, that's pretty much it.

Thus C26000 for saxophone bodies. I didn't see where the XRF analysis of "key material" was done. If it was on the key cups then the apparent use of C26000 for those would make sense as they have to be formed into the cups. If I had to hazard a guess for rods and key arms I'd guess C36000 for its improved machinability.

Key cups were measured, not rods or key arms

 

[turf3]

Key cups were measured, not rods or key arms

Makes sense, then, to use the same C26000 sheet brass for key cups that you've already got pallets of for the body.