Saxophones Another Beaugnier

[ghostler]

There is a bit more information on Vito Pascucci at:

https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/dr-vito-pascucci-12-1999.379088/

Hit [Click to Expand] on the Foreword by Paul R. Coats.
Also

https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/a-complete-history-of-g-leblanc.224696/

Please note, I have not done any serious, thorough reading. But, I got a kick out of the humorous but tasteful wording by one of Café's staunch, extremely knowledgeable repairers, @Stephen Howard , makes for interesting and informative reading:

Noblet (Beaugnier) Vito alto saxophone review

A workbench review of the Noblet (Beaugnier) Vito alto sax

shwoodwind.co.uk

Still haven't located an article I read sometime back that gave the history of the Beaugnier factory complete with (black and white) photographs.

 

[Woodpad]

A Baldwin special made by Beaugnier, Alto with the three lowest tone holes on the left. in reasonable shape. Pictures will follow.

 

[ellinas]

A Baldwin special made by Beaugnier, Alto with the three lowest tone holes on the left. in reasonable shape. Pictures will follow.

I'd love to see it but I bet it's a mod. 37 stencil

 

[ghostler]

I posted photos of my newly acquired Beaugnier Vito alto here:

Saxophones - Any Jupiter owners?

Looks very nice @ghostler

cafesaxophone.com

Here are the photos again (using BB Code to reshow, not another re-uploading):

This is a new photo of the left pinky paddles:

The sax has a serial number of 119xxA. What model of alto is this Beaugnier Vito? What approximate year was it manufactured?

 

[Woodpad]

I'd love to see it but I bet it's a mod 37 stencil.

you have won the bet. It looks like the pictures above. Serial number 118xx A so around a 1000 lower than Ghostlers Vito alto.
But it needs some work. This morning I removed the top four keys and cleaned them.

These 4 tone holes are flat with a thickness of 0,6-0,7 mm. The top F tone hole has a diameter of only 11 mm, which could help with the top tones according to a theory from a man who plays a Lyrist. As this tone hole is 2 mm wider on my Yamaha Vito I can test his theory (Can't prove it of course).

There are some spots where the tone holes thickness is reduced to around 0,4 mm and on all these places you could see wear on the pads. This is a weak point of the drawn tone holes, It takes a lot of time and skill to make uniform thick tone holes. This is often neglected as a quality attribute.

The measured ideal height of the first four tone holes are almost identical. The high E requires only 0.1 mm more than the other three. This is very good, you need to design and fabricate very accurate to reach such figures. Generally this increases the time between paddings as it makes it possible to have the same ring indenture on all pads.

The main worry is that t he A/Bb key is vertically not parallel to the tone hole. It is difficult material to bend and I could also correct it with the pad. First remove some more applicature before I decide.

 

[ghostler]

A little further research, I am thinking that my Vito is dated similar to my Vito low Bb bari, the early 1950's, because its left pinky keypads are similar, plus this info from Dr. Sax:

My serial number of 119xxA is near the serial number 12xxx, which has a date of 1953. Model 37 is listed for S/N 10771A, so most likely mine is also a 37, it also has the left hand bell keys. IMHO, the 1968 purchase date was not unusual 50 years ago. Then, music stores especially in smaller communities were small, family operated and in nearly every community. As long as it was an unsold instrument, it was considered new.

My alto has no country of manufacture stamped on it, so it is possible it may have been assembled in Kenosha, Wisconsin using Beaugnier parts. Perhaps the "A" suffix denotes Kenosha? The bell keys are on the player's left side. (My bari has them on the left side, too, it predates the mid 1950's? Duke.) Later Beaugniers had these on the right side.

Comments?

 

[Woodpad]

An intresting baldwin reference.

 

[ellinas]

baldwin went wild with stencils ( for example guitars connection with burns etc.) circa 67 - 68. Your sax must be a late 60s one. And those are my favourite 🙂

 

[ghostler]

baldwin went wild with stencils ( for example guitars connection with burns etc.) circa 67 - 68. Your sax must be a late 60s one. And those are my favourite 🙂

I think the test will be @Woodpad 's photos. The Duke version came after, with bell pads on the more modern traditional right side and a different left pinky key pad than the 37's.

In 2012, I made a PDF printout of a discussion on SOTW, the PDF copy I saved truncated the URL in the footer and a search did not give me the page, shown here:

http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?173771-VITO...

I saved these Duke Baritone Sax photos as JPG's, here is one of the left pinky key pad:

SOTW photo.

Since these were intended as beginner level instruments, it is possible that if a warehouse of parts was left over, to make the best of cost effectiveness for sales profits, that an earlier model could be sold as new at a later date.

I say this of course by conjecture. For example, I give my 1990 Dodge D150 long bed pickup truck that I purchased from the Albuquerque Auto Auction sponsored by the General Services Administration (GSA) doing their used fleet vehicle sales.

The government negotiated a cost for bulk purchase of these trucks for all federal government agencies. The Chrysler Corp. kept their bid competitive, by using up all excess parts left over from their previous year model.

My truck came with the 1989 year plastic radiator front grill, 1989 brake assemblies and various other parts. Bought with 60,000 miles on the odometer, after a couple years I needed to replace worn parts. The auto parts jobbers found a match with the previous year, because the 1990 year parts would not fit.

 

[turf3]

There were also a fair number of saxes assembled using Beaugnier designs but labeled "Conn", apparently in Nogales Ariz/MX, but also possibly in other locations. I have played one of these altos, and it plays very much like my Beaugnier bass sax, and very little like my Conn alto (6M, 1946). I thought it was a far better horn than its Mexi-Conn origin would indicate. Unfortunately my buddy who got it for free doesn't want to give it up.

 

[ellinas]

There was a period that 37 and 38 were made in parallel. Different horn. Some clients wanted the 37 others the 38. VOX for example wanted 38 stencils. And 37s were made in France and some were assembled in the states (Kenosha)... Offtopic there were some conn altos from nogales .. that looked or were beaugnier design based.

 

[ghostler]

Unfortunately my buddy who got it for free doesn't want to give it up.

Thanks for the additional tid-bit of info, @turf3 . I did find a bit of humour with your last statement. It was a repairer and seller, who gave a little bit of additional info. The reason for the slightly darker sound of these saxes was due to its slightly narrower conical dimensions versus later saxes. (This is true at least for my pre-Duke bari.)

Some saxists (not all) prefer the darker sound calling it "vintage". It is just a matter of preferences. I've yet to see maybe with the exception of the most discerning band leader, that a vintage "ride" played with a later slightly brighter tone still made listeners happy.

I guess one could "blame" ("blame-storming" in forums?) it on "modern recording equipment effects". 😉

 

[ellinas]

Wow I always thought big bore saxes are the ones called "darker"

 

[turf3]

Techncians talk all kinds of nonsense regarding saxophone bore designs, and almost never based on actual measurements.

First of all, there is no single "bore size" for a saxophone, as it's a cone.

Secondly, that cone deviates quite largely from a true cone, especially in the neck and bow areas, partly due to the requirements of manufacture, and partly due to manufacturers' tweaking to improve intonation across the range of the horn. Of course, a large part of the surface of that cone is disturbed by closed tone holes which result in a very "lumpy" bore. I'm sure that is why the thing doesn't behave exactly like a theoretical cone, requiring said tweaking.

Often, when someone on the internet offers up a statement that "such and such a horn has such and such a sound because it's a large bore [or small bore] horn", I go to the one data base of ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS I know of, the Marten Postma site; and about 50% of the time I find the horn they're talking about is pretty exactly spot on the average bore size (down the length of the thing) for all the horns in the database; about 25% of the time I find that the horn they're calling "Large Bore" deviates from the average in several places, being SMALLER than the average; and only about 25% of the time do I find that there are data indicating that one could make some kind of an argument that the thing they're calling "Large bore" [or "small bore"] actually is what they're calling it.

In other words, pretty much the exact results one would expect from random chance.

I have learned to discount something like 99% of the big all-encompassing statements that techs make, as total and unmitigated rubbish; and the more authoritatively they make them, the more likely the statements are to be wrong.

"all old sopranos play out of tune"
"old Conns play out of tune"
"the set screws on Conn saxophones are needless and should be taken out and thrown away"
"This [holds up a Dolnet stencil labeled "Martin, Paris"] is a REAL Martin, before they were taken over by Wurlitzer and ruined"
"Holton saxophones especially are no good"
"You want to get rid of that [King Super 20; Conn naked lady; Buescher 400; etc.] they're no good, you need a Yamaha student horn"
"that little pad round back is the bastard key and the best thing to do is to take off the mechanism and throw it away, grind down the tone hole, and solder a penny over it"

Shall I continue?

 

[ellinas]

I get your point and I agree in most of what you said here 👍👍👍 a lot of talking everywhere and not much quality playing.. I always had the feeling that what I call large bore saxes are darker because of their necks. Keilwerths Conn's and beaugniers have that bigger diameter neck and I thought it's because of a bigger bore. But I'll take your word for it since I never measured anything seriously or scientifically. 👍

 

[ghostler]

I go to the one data base of ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS I know of, the Marten Postma site;

Do you have a link to that site? This will help listeners to distill truth from fiction, also distill other factors to help explain differences.

 

[ellinas]

@turf3 great resource!!! Thank you so much!
@ghostler - M. Postma :::: saxophones, mouthpieces & acoustics

 

[turf3]

I get your point and I agree in most of what you said here 👍👍👍 a lot of talking everywhere and not much quality playing.. I always had the feeling that what I call large bore saxes are darker because of their necks. Keilwerths Conn's and beaugniers have that bigger diameter neck and I thought it's because of a bigger bore. But I'll take your word for it since I never measured anything seriously or scientifically. 👍

What do you mean "bigger diameter neck"? Where on the neck?

 

[ghostler]

First of all, there is no single "bore size" for a saxophone, as it's a cone.

When I say "bore", I am referring to a measurable diameter toward the exit end of the cone prior to where the bell flares. Perhaps a certain distance past the last tone hole in the bell? Maybe I am not using the acceptable venacular of the industry. This can be measured. It can used as a comparison if measuring method is consistent to all saxes. I am not referring to the theoretical diameter based on the end correction past the bell for acoustical length.

What would be truly helpful is if one could relate with sufficient backup information to help others better understand what properties of a sax will cause it to be perceived as a "dark" tone versus a "bright" tone.

I've seen people being told what it is not, how about what is it? And, I am not posing this question to any specific individual. I have seen debates but not yet anything conclusive enough to help settle these recurring sometimes seemingly retorical questions.

I am not pointing a finger at any particular individual but echoing a need for useful clarification.

 

[ellinas]

Tenon

What do you mean "bigger diameter neck"? Where on the neck?

Tenon. But as you said I may be wrong. I don't insist. I described what I thought is true. I'm just a player. It just happened than 3 horns that people call large bore had wider necks and had similar sonic properties. I assumed there was a characteristic that determines the sound.