Saxophones Another Beaugnier

[majordennis]

Apologies for a lengthy absence from the Cafe, new home (with neighbours) and other commitments has restricted my playing/practising/generally making a noise somewhat.

I have been happily playing on my Martin, again many thanks to @griff136 and my local tech.

I have expressed my admiration of the Beaugnier marque on several occasions and when a Noblet came up on Ebay I couldn't resist it but several characteristics are different to research I have done into the Beaugnier models, no bent nail bell brace, angled left hand pinky keys, right hand bell keys, different C/Eb key design and different keyguards. I found the same tenor model sold by Stohrer Music some time ago identified as a Beaugnier and a similar alto tested by jazzmanted on Youtube.

It's in superb condition, plays nicely and came with a 1950's Vandoren Perfecta which works really well with the horn. Anyone else come across these.

 

[majordennis]

Some pix, thanks Mods for moving thread.

 

[ghostler]

I came across a Le Blanc Beaugnier sax 14 years ago, but by fate. Best I can tell, it was made in the early 1950's by process of elimination, as there were no information on my serial number. It was labeled as Le Blanc's entry level "Vito" line.

As an "as is fixer upper", it arrived at my door after shipping from just inland of the US East Coast. Much of the cost must have been in shipping, as it arrived in its original well tattered, heavy plywood naugahide covered case. Final Internet bid price total was $315.00 US.

It had a high school name stenciled on it in white paint. Reading between the lines, I gathered since it was well battered and repaired many times, was used by this high school as possibly a loaner instrument until placed in storage when its replacement arrived. Then years later during closet cleanout, became part of an instrument bid lot, then finally me.

Note, this is mostly speculation on my part, but is probably closer to the truth. Regardless, we have a right to create our own theories until proven otherwise.

After my straightening the bent key posts, warped rods, reset pad heights, replaced missing bumper corks, removed dents, improvised a clothes guard, it actually played very well in tune. I've got photos of it somewhere in this forum, but would have to search for it.

It has a pleasing darker sound to it, almost cello-like, plays the altissimo register very easily, one of the best I have seen. The Rico Graftonite B5 mouthpiece for it and softer reeds is a good match for my embouchure, very free blowing, very controllable, a pure joy to play.

In prepping for a move, it fell, dented the bell flare and separated the soldered brace bell to body. I have some major work to do to fix. However, it will allow me to obtain a better pad to hole match, which was slightly off by a previous repair.

In my research, found that all Beaugnier saxes were hand made. Le Blanc closed its Beaugnier (in a suburb of Paris) factory around 1970 as it could not compete with more modern manufacturing methods then. (Interestingly, the factory was across the street from Selmer.)

From reviews and comments I have read, it appears that others who own or have played the Beaugniers have very favourable impressions of them.

 

[ghostler]

Photos before and after of my Beaugnier Vito bari sax is in this 2 year old post:

Saxophones - Van Marle Baritone, Who made this ?

@ghostler ***** Thanks @JayeNM on the practical ballpark costs for a relacquer job. As you point out, it would have to be a high cost demanding vintage horn to make such work profitable. :thumb:***** There is a deceiving amount of work that goes into prepping for lacquer. Polishing around all...

cafesaxophone.com

A photo of me playing it in public is here:

Accessories - Leather Bag for Neck?

Pulling a pistol rug from the bell of your horn, some may think it's a PPK, and call you, Bond, Bari Bond.

cafesaxophone.com

It is from 12 years ago, I was playing traditional Christmas carols A Capella in front of Walgreens Drugstore, helping the Salvation Army raise money for funding their local social services to the poor. The SA officers found that when I played, donations jumped from around $25 - $35 US for a good bell ringer to over $100 an hour when I played the sax.

This post has a 2016 recording of me playing Charlie Parker's Dewey Square on this bari:

Mouthpieces - Rico Royal Graftonite and Metalite Mouthpiece Dimensions

The excellent website, Doctor Sax is no longer available. In 2015, I did a PDF print saved to my hard disk. Here is it is, converted to JPG. Dr. Sax obtained these measurements by a combintation of his personal measurements and information Rico sent him by correspondence. As far as how these...

cafesaxophone.com

Although I have a brand new Antigua Winds low A bari which plays very well, my low Bb Beaugnier Vito bari is still my favourite.

 

[majordennis]

Just bought this and it continues to puzzle me, I've worked out from Kim Slava's excellent records that this "is" a Beaugnier despite several design anomalies from more recent ones, serial 7664 probably originating middle to late 50's before the extra metal roller on the low C# of this model was added. What I don't get is the condition of this horn, lacquer is glossy suggesting a relaq but engraving is crisp suggesting no relaq. Is this a 70 year old horn in almost mint condition or not?? Any observations would be greatly appreciated. I'm not bothered either way because it plays beautifully, even with me at the sharp end.

 

[ghostler]

Just bought this and it continues to puzzle me, I've worked out from Kim Slava's excellent records that this "is" a Beaugnier despite several design anomalies from more recent ones, serial 7664 probably originating middle to late 50's before the extra metal roller on the low C# of this model was added. What I don't get is the condition of this horn, lacquer is glossy suggesting a relaq but engraving is crisp suggesting no relaq. Is this a 70 year old horn in almost mint condition or not?? Any observations would be greatly appreciated. I'm not bothered either way because it plays beautifully, even with me at the sharp end.
View attachment 29441

Being a layman observer, after I clicked on your photo link so I could bring it up, I see some under-paint-surface buff scratches between the engraved portions. My guess is that it may be a re-lacquer but very well done. I assume you are interested in it as a performer and not a display item. If the price is right, or you can negotiate a "right price", would it really make any difference if it were a re-lac? If it were a re-lac and pads are in decent shape, would it not then be like playing a new horn?

@PigSquealer , @JayeNM , @Stephen Howard , any comments? (This is his photo link: View attachment 29441 )

 

[JayeNM]

@majordennis nice horn, I like that era of Noblet, the "egg-shaped" table was kinda cool.

 

[majordennis]

@majordennis nice horn, I like that era of Noblet, the "egg-shaped" table was kinda cool.

Being a layman observer, after I clicked on your photo link so I could bring it up, I see some under-paint-surface buff scratches between the engraved portions. My guess is that it may be a re-lacquer but very well done. I assume you are interested in it as a performer and not a display item. If the price is right, or you can negotiate a "right price", would it really make any difference if it were a re-lac? If it were a re-lac and pads are in decent shape, would it not then be like playing a new horn?

@PigSquealer , @JayeNM , @Stephen Howard , any comments? (This is his photo link: View attachment 29441 )

My 2 other altos are a Vito Beaugnier and a Martin Medalist, both can be described as "distressed" but play beautifully. I bought this simply because I like Beaugniers and Martins and it hasn't disappointed, it came with a Vandoren Perfecta mouthpiece which I believe also dates from the 50's and seems to be a perfect match, I may try it on the other 2 and see what happens. I'm only a hobby player but this ones going nowhere.

 

[majordennis]

@majordennis nice horn, I like that era of Noblet, the "egg-shaped" table was kinda cool.

Thanks the only fault I've found so far is a small leak on low D, tech on his hols at the moment.

 

[ellinas]

My 2 other altos are a Vito Beaugnier and a Martin Medalist, both can be described as "distressed" but play beautifully. I bought this simply because I like Beaugniers and Martins and it hasn't disappointed, it came with a Vandoren Perfecta mouthpiece which I believe also dates from the 50's and seems to be a perfect match, I may try it on the other 2 and see what happens. I'm only a hobby player but this ones going nowhere.

They are really mouthpiece friendly. They just tune with the mouthpiece almost all the way in to the cork. Unlike modern saxophones. But their intonation is great!
I got my Beaugnier alto from George @JayeNM . great instrument!

 

[ghostler]

They are really mouthpiece friendly. They just tune with the mouthpiece almost all the way in to the cork. Unlike modern saxophones. But their intonation is great!

My early 1950's Beaugnier Vito low Bb bari mounts mouthpieces like that, and it plays well in tune. The D'darrio Rico Graftonite B5 is a natural for it, blows very freely. Haven't needed to seek another mouthpiece yet.

 

[PigSquealer]

@PigSquealer , @JayeNM , @Stephen Howard , any comments? (This is his photo link: View attachment 29441 )

FWIW I’ve been following the thread. Honestly i know very little about this maker. My knowledge of European horns is limited. Still I’m always interested in learning. Especially when a oddball hits my bench.

 

[skeller047]

I’m a Beaugnier fan, and while I am not qualified to talk about lacquer originality, this post only adds to my admiration for this maker. I have two altos, a Vito model 37 and a Beaugnier labeled model 38 (both later than this horn), and they just sound great. I recently took the model 38 on a road trip, playing at several different venues, and it just sang so nicely. It has a distinct personality, which I like very much.

It’s every bit the equal of my SBA alto; not the same, but equally expressive and refined. A fellow altoist at a jam session asked if he could try it; I let him (he could really play well), and he was very impressed. He had never heard of Beaugnier.

@PigSquealer - the reason you don’t know much about these horns is that nobody does. All the records of Beaugnier were lost in a fire, and Kim Slava’s excellent research site is only available on the internet archive. Beaugnier mostly made horns for other companies (Leblanc/Noblet and Vito in particular, which eventually were joined). Beaugnier labeled horns are quite rare, and most of them (including mine) were made for a store, so even there it’s a stencil. But they are worth looking for, they punch way above their weight.

 

[ghostler]

Vito (Leblanc) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

has a little bit of sparse history on Vito.

Vito Serial Numbers

Doctor Sax repairs, buys and sells woodwinds...saxes, clarinet flutes and a variety of reed instruments. I strive to bring quality affordable instruments to people who want to play. I specialize in saxophones and other vintage instruments.

web.archive.org

has more.

My bari was missing the jewels on the pad guards. I purchased 10 mm dia. plastic jewels, then glued ruby coloured ones in the holders, which dressed mine up nicely. If I get bored, I can change them out to another colour.

I vaguely remember a story that Vito was the name of the son of the Le Blanc family member who represented the US sales side of the company.

Deviating a tangent off-topic, found that my Vito Tenor is actually a Yamaha YTS-23 in disguise. It has a plain bell without engraving, no country of origin, "Vito" is stamped on the bell's right side, serial number by the right thumb rest.

 

[ellinas]

Vintage vitos can be beaugnier, Yamaha student line , yanagisawa or Jupiter.

 

[majordennis]

Many thanks to all for your contributions, it was interesting to note that @ellinas mentioned how mouthpiece friendly these horns are. While extolling the virtue of the Vandoren I found my old Goldbeck/Sakshama and Link STM work just as well, the Goldbeck is a particular favourite of mine, beautifully finished work

Thankyou again.

 

[JayeNM]

I vaguely remember a story that Vito was the name of the son of the Le Blanc family member who represented the US sales side of the company.

I don't think that is correct. Vito Pascucci and Georges Leblanc (along with Robert Malerne) were all WW2 friends, serving at the same time in France.
Beaugnier I believe was already an active small instrument maker, affilliated with Georges LeBlanc omehow.
Vito was a tech by trade I think, and post-war, he wanted to start offering affordable saxes in the USA...his friend Georges hooked him up with the Beaugnier factory in Paris.

Later, when Beaugnier was gonna go under, Georges actually purchased the factory to keep it going for another decade or so.

Something like this...

So for quite a stretch Beaugnier made horns under the Noblet, Vito, LeBlanc, AND Beaugnier names (occasionally there appear oddities which have BOTH Noblet and Vito engraved on the same horns 😳 ) Beaugnier also stenciled for other companies. Gretsch for example....

The VAST amount of Beaugnier sax production were these stencil brands. An actual Beaugnier-engraved horn.....while I won't call it quite 'rare' to find... are pretty few and far between, really.

 

[ghostler]

I don't think that is correct. Vito Pascucci and Georges Leblanc (along with Robert Malerne) were all WW2 friends, serving at the same time in France.

Thanks, @JayeNM for shedding more light.

This is why I say vague. It was over a decade ago, when I acquired my Beaugnier Vito bari, that I started my research. I thought I made PDF printouts of web info, may still have it on a backup CD somewhere, but it looks like all that evaporated into the unobtanium ether cloud never to be seen again.

Websites then that had info, one is lucky if one can find that info that they viewed previously on the Wayback Machine. Although its the next best thing and I am truly grateful that in places I have found what I was looking for; I have found that the WM, (seems a volunteer project so I don't fault them,) contains gaps, not capturing all pages and years.

It was a decade+ ago, that I found out that the Beaugnier factory was closed around 1970 or 1971, because their hand made saxes could not compete with more modern manufacturing methods. It was by process of elimination that based on the year gap that my sax may have fell in by serial number and that the tenor sax had the same L.H. pinky table, my guess was early 1950's. It certainly predated the Duke.

As more and more info sites go off-line, it is getting harder to find historical details. Social media is not a good substitute for historical repository information.

 

[JayeNM]

I THINK Beaugnier lasted until around '75, this may have been the time when they closed then LeBlanc bought them and tried to keep them afloat which lasted only a few more years.

But that may be ME, simply remembering wrong. But yeah, Beaugnier ceased sometime in the 70's.

Indicative of this would be the fact that Vito changed their manufacturer/stencil supplier to Yamaha in the mid-70's...so those two things would logistically concur.

There is, or was, out there in cyberspace, some remembrances and letters floating around written by Vito Pascucci recalling and recording exactly how it all began....including some correspondences between he and Georges...

 

[PigSquealer]

Vito Pascucci and Georges Leblanc (along with Robert Malerne) were all WW2 friends, serving at the same time in France.

This is what i found in the NAMM archive.

"Vito Pascucci was assigned to band instrument repair during World War II for Glenn Miller’s Army Air Force Band. Although Miller was much older, the world-famous bandleader and Vito became fast friends and, in fact, outlined a plan to establish a chain of music retail stores after the war. Miller’s disappearance in 1944 ended that dream, and Vito took some time after the war to study musical instruments while still in France. He met Leon Leblanc and within a few years opened the American branch of G. Leblanc. The tremendous success of the company and its strong and innovative product line led to Vito’s well-respected reputation."

Here is the recorded interview with Mr. Pascucci.
Vito Pascucci | NAMM.org

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