Beginner Saxes Amazon Import Upgrading

[Pete Thomas]

I had a quick look at Amazon UK and found Summina. This bloke looks very familiar?

 

[Direct Current]

I had a quick look at Amazon UK and found Summina. This bloke looks very familiar?


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I'm not familiar with " E-falt " terminology.

 

[dreadnet]

I bought a Slade\Amoon red brass Alto sax from ebay for £158 Was advertised on Amazon fo £200. Played it for 10 months with no issues. Then sold it for £150 and bought a Yamaha Yas25 alto from curlywoodwinds for £450. Maybe I got lucky.

 

[mizmar]

...Thomann or G4M...

If I was asked by someone wanting a low cost, low risk taster start - apparat from renting - I'd suggest either of these. Their size really works for the customer.

tl;dr
The thing with the heavyweight online stores is they acknowledge the "lottery" issue and can manage it. They can do this because a/ they carry a big inventory &/or have good supply chain to the manufacture; and b/ have a good deal with DHL (or such). So they go: it costs us little to offer free returns/replacement if the horn we send is bad. And, because they're big, they can pressure manufacturers to up the quality (ie own brand) to reduce replacement costs further. They can probably also make the manufacture carry some of the cost of returns.
Structurally, Amazon can't to that.

 

[Pete Thomas]

So they go: it costs us little to offer free returns/replacement if the horn we send is bad.

It's basically a trial period. In the UK (and I think EU) online sellers must offer the ability to return (notification of order cancellation within 14 days of receipt of item). This is irrespective of any faulty item return.

They can probably also make the manufacture carry some of the cost of returns.

That would depend on their contract, who knows what kind of a deal they have? The cost of returning back to the manufacturer may be more than the item is worth.

Structurally, Amazon can't to that.

Are you sure?

 

[mizmar]

It's basically a trial period...

Well, look at their 5 year warranty, 90 money back etc. guarantee. Including "If the fault occurs within the first 180 days of your ownership, we'll collect the goods and deliver them back to you free of charge."

They highlight / signal "better quality than no-name-ebayzon store". IMHO.

Why do I think Amazon can't do that? My guess lies in their relationship with DHL (or such). I once had an order with G4M which was missing a part. When I told them, it arrived at my front door in a yellow van .. and I'll bet the cost just got wrapped into a huge, discount contract, smaller outfits can't negotiate. Same with returns.

There's some calculation between the cost of improved QA vs the cost / frequency of returns or fixes that limit QA in favor of providing a better guarantee.

Sure, I'm guessing that two of Europe's biggest music kit online stores have a closer, and more powerful relationship to manufactures than my high street store who probably get visited by a wholesaler once or twice a year.

Obviously I'm (doing educated) guessing.

 

[thomsax]

For some years ago they sold cheap instruments in our local Netto shop. On the left side coffee, chocolate .... and on the right side socks, underpants, panties ... and in the middle alto saxes, trumpets, violins ... . So hard for me to accept that a sax was sold in that way. I looked at one and I could see it needed some love and care. Maybe, or probably, B-stock saxes. A guy that also was looking at the saxes asked me if I knew about saxes. I told him that he must buy reeds and a neck strap before he could start to blow. "A what a **** I must have something to do during the Christmas holidays" he said and grab one. Even if the sax was just 800. 00 s e k (c 80.00 dollars) it's not good. Me and my father were dressed-up when we walk into the music store to buy my first alto. An used Conn Director (Mexico) alto from 1963 for 1200.00 s e k (1968). Probably a better buy than an ultra cheap PRC sax. But no good/famous player to promote the Conn Mexico.

I'm too old for this kind of sax talk.

 

[jazzdoh]

I can see the benefit in buying from G4M and Thomann, these are big music retailers and buy 100's of these horns and have good return policies and they will send another horn out to you quickly.

Amazon on the other hand sell everything and I doubt that they would be that bothered to inspect and check quality before it went out (although I not sure G4M or Thomann would do either) but I would somehow be more assured by these companies than Amazon.
Yes a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece would help and a visit to the tech for fettling would be ideal but we have to remember the prime customer base for these horns is mainly kids or the parents who pay for them, which is why they do them in a range of colours, so asking a parent to buy a horn for between £150/£300 and then asking them to spend probably best part of another £100+ for a better mouthpiece and a setup might be difficult to justify for the buyer of these cheapies.

 

[greenstripe]

I'm curious to know given the hypothetical nature of the original post. Had @Direct Current already committed to purchasing an instrument from Amazon prior to coming here and asking about cheap and easy wins with regards potential upgrades?


Obviously discussing the relative merits of various online sellers may be a moot point if the above is the case.

 

[Direct Current]

I bought a Slade\Amoon red brass Alto sax from ebay for £158 Was advertised on Amazon fo £200. Played it for 10 months with no issues. Then sold it for £150 and bought a Yamaha Yas25 alto from curlywoodwinds for £450. Maybe I got lucky.

Following as many cheap Amazon imports videos as I could stomach, I've concluded unscientifically:

- In the Cheap Imports swamp, SLADE stands out as the most reliable "brand" even while all the brands and no name brands seem to originate from either same factory or the same business model or region. Every Y T review of SLADE + ALTO was decent out of the box.

- In the Cheap Imports swamp, the brand MENDINI or MENDINI BY CECELIO is consistently priced below all the other brands. Also the MENDINI is the least reviewed brand from the swamp. No idea why since QC is not a priority.

- While buying a SLADE or other cheap import, the ALTO saxophones seem to be more reliable purchases than TENOR or SOPRANO units. I've never seen a positive Y T review of any cheap soprano. Maybe they are simply better at making a decent alto saxophone en mass while the other types are still more challenging? Don't over think the cheap imports swamp. lol

- This cannot be said enough about the cheap imports. You might luck into a decent MP. You will never buy a cheap import with good reeds. Even if you keep the stock MP, use your reeds for best results. For any results. Better MP is almost necessary, but not an absolute. Using your reeds is an absolute.

- To avoid disappointment, brace one self for 1/3 almost unplayable, 1/3 decent, and 1/3 actually nice given the price. If buying other than a SLADE brand or alto saxophone, brace yourself more along these lines.

 

[Direct Current]

The thing with the heavyweight online stores is they acknowledge the "lottery" issue and can manage it. They can do this because a/ they carry a big inventory &/or have good supply chain to the manufacture; and b/ have a good deal with DHL (or such). So they go: it costs us little to offer free returns/replacement if the horn we send is bad.

And, because they're big, they can pressure manufacturers to up the quality (ie own brand) to reduce replacement costs further. They can probably also make the manufacture carry some of the cost of returns.

Structurally, Amazon can't to that.

I'm confused. What you are describing in section one above, top, is precisely the Amazon model. Lottery. High tolerance for fails and returns. Shrug, make customer happy but do nothing to fix the QC.

And those "big" ones pressuring manufacturers are who? Sweetwater? Does not seem like anything Amazon would bother doing. I'd say the actual problem with cheap imports is precisely Amazon doing nothing for almost a decade of negative reputation building. And still do no pressuring.

I don't know who your THEY is and I actually disagree that Amazon cannot do that pressuring. I believe they should and choose not to bother. Make up in volume and automation.

The "own brands" using imported goods that I am familiar with are JEAN PAUL and BETTER SAX. I hope their QC pressure on the manufacturers will raise all the boats.

 

[Direct Current]

"Where are Thomann instruments made?

We directly import products (where it makes sense and where we can guarantee our high service standards) from various manufacturers in Japan, U.S., Italy, Spain, China, Korea, Taiwan, India etc."

=======

Consumers should never have to care where something originates.

The world needs more mass retailers like Thomann.

 

[MarkSax]

it's apparent that just a few more dollars in upgrades could make this cheap purchase into a stunning high value investment.

You mean drive the value from $ 200 to $2000? Uh, imho never happens, a cheapie remains a cheapie, throw whatever you want in the mix.

 

[Direct Current]

Yes a Yamaha 4C mouthpiece would help and a visit to the tech for fettling would be ideal but we have to remember the prime customer base for these horns is mainly kids or the parents who pay for them, which is why they do them in a range of colours, so asking a parent to buy a horn for between £150/£300 and then asking them to spend probably best part of another £100+ for a better mouthpiece and a setup might be difficult to justify for the buyer of these cheapies.

The more I've learned and experienced, more I am feeling disappointed with Amazon. Their comfort with the LOTTERY approach to QC has us in this hole.

 

[Direct Current]

I'm curious to know given the hypothetical nature of the original post. Had @Direct Current already committed to purchasing an instrument from Amazon prior to coming here and asking about cheap and easy wins with regards potential upgrades?


Obviously discussing the relative merits of various online sellers may be a moot point if the above is the case.

Somewhat guilty as charged. I'd hoped to leverage the SLADE or MENDINI offerings into a program where we would do the missing QC and basic upgrades to offer kids NEW and OWN IT and cool COLORS.

But by the time one adds the 4C, Rico reeds, and a technician tuning ...

I sincerely hope for success with JEAN PAUL and BETTER SAX companies. Maybe one just has to pay something for a good saxophone. But thousands of dollars is a strain, especially if just trying.

I want every child, every person, owning and playing a music instrument. I believe that is one of the paths to world peace.

Apologies to the community for dragging this on. My intention was sincerely to launch this as a business helping Mom and Dad.

 

[mizmar]

What you are describing in section one above, top, is precisely the Amazon model.

No. Amazon is a mostly neutral mediator, whether that's stuff going in / out if a warehouse, comments or as a trader platform.

And those "big" ones pressuring manufacturers are who? Sweetwater?

I was referring to Gear4Music and Thonmann - In Europe, it was in the reply of the reply of the reply I quoted; I guess sweetwater & guitarcenter in the us. I don't know.

I actually disagree that Amazon cannot do that pressuring...

It's not their business model. It wouldn't scale over the diversity of goods and, indeed, Amazon are more than happy to mediate any old crap as long as they get their cut...

Like most markets (market for markets, in this case), everyone finds a niche.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Already it's apparent that just a few more dollars in upgrades could make this cheap purchase into a stunning high value investment.

Uh, imho never happens, a cheapie remains a cheapie, throw whatever you want in the mix.

I totally agree, nothing such as has been suggested can turn a cheap purchase such as a $300 saxophone on Amazon into anything but a cheap £3000 saxophone

Consumers should never have to care where something originates.

I often care for various reasons including but limited to:

• Carbon footprint
• Human rights
• Animal welfare
• Food hygiene regulations
• Other * (but remember - we don't discuss politics!)

 

[Pete Thomas]

And, because they're big, they can pressure manufacturers to up the quality (ie own brand) to reduce replacement costs further. They can probably also make the manufacture carry some of the cost of returns.
Structurally, Amazon can't to that.

I think Amazon does a lot of pressuring. I know it used to be by pressuring manufacturers/distributors into lowering prices (just for them). But yes, I doubt there is much pressuring to increase quality.

 

[mizmar]

But yes, I doubt there is much pressuring to increase quality.

That is the angle I was going for.

Maybe, if you progress the Café MkIV - you'll have that conversation with G4M and see if I'm right!

 

[jonf]

Saxophones are cheaper now than they've ever been, and by a long way. But the best advice I think is to buy from a music shop rather than a marketplace like Amazon, eBay or Facebook, unless you really know what you're doing.