Forum & Copyright (Guidelines)

It looks like Pete's spot on. The lady in question has indeed done a cover using the same backing track, although it's on YouTube rather than Soundcloud.

I'm assuming you can challenge this sort of thing with Soundcloud?
 
You've fallen foul of an automated copyright protection system. To be fair to Soundcloud, not only do they not have a choice about protecting artists' copyright but the original writer does deserve to be paid so they're doing the right thing.

In your case, you could probably argue the toss successfully as you legitimately bought a backing track to record over. Check the terms and conditions on the track and if it says you can use it for non-commercial use then you should be fine.
 
Ok, from the Jazzbacks site:

"Use our tracks to perform at gigs in restaurants and private functions either solo or with a duo. Collect a whole repertoire of your favourite jazz standards to perform with or to practice and rehearse with. You can make a great demo using our tracks."

So yeah, it doesn't specifically say you can upload to Soundcloud/YouTube. Confusing. Is there anyway of getting backing tracks that you can use, or do you have to make them yourself?
 
I think the phrase 'You can make a great demo using our tracks.' is the important one. This is written permission that you can create a new recording using their backing tracks, but not permission to sell those recordings. Precisely how you've used it.
 
Ads are not displayed to logged in members. Yay!
Ok, from the Jazzbacks site:

"Use our tracks to perform at gigs in restaurants and private functions either solo or with a duo. Collect a whole repertoire of your favourite jazz standards to perform with or to practice and rehearse with. You can make a great demo using our tracks."

That doesn't sound like an actual licence agreement, it is marketing blurb saying what you can do. It doesn't say what you can't do.

If they disclude "publishing" then indeed it would mean they don't allow Soundcloud. Such companies usually let it be as "under the radar" and would normally just go after people publishing commercially.

What has happened here is not the backing track company claiming the rights, but the record label, or more likely their digital distributer.

The thing is, if they licensed the backing track to use commercially, then the record company is justified in doing this. If they didn't, then they are in the wrong for claiming the copyright when it includes something they don't have the right to (ie the backing track recording)
 
So here is the legal bit:

Licensing
This is a licensing agreement. All jazz backing tracks remain the property of Jazzbacks.com at all times and are offered for license only. No goods form any part of this agreement.

A license to use backing tracks as an accompaniment to live performance is granted only to the nominated licensee. Use by third parties, lending, hiring or re-selling is strictly forbidden and a license will be deemed invalid in the event of breach of any/all of the terms and conditions stated herein, rendering any further use by licensee of the backing tracks illegal. No other rights are granted by the license.

The nominated licensee may use Jazzbacks backing tracks for the purpose of creating ‘demo’ recordings, however, any commercial release, sale or trade of any recording utilizing any portion of a Jazzbacks backing track requires the expressed written consent of Jazzbacks.com. Failure to do so instantly terminates this licensing agreement and will result in legal action.

It says you can record demos, but grey area: it doesn't say you can "publish" or upload to the Public.
 
Ok, this is well confusing now. So, back to my original question I guess. Is there anyway that you CAN get a backing track which you can then upload (for non-commercial purposes)?.
 
Ok, this is well confusing now. So, back to my original question I guess. Is there anyway that you CAN get a backing track which you can then upload (for non-commercial purposes)?.

Normally you would be able to do this with any/most backing tracks.

The only reason you can't in this case is (I think) nothing to do with the backing track company, rather the record label which has released it and so copyrighted the whole recording including the backing.
 
Actually in this case it sounds like that wouldn't help. The person who created the backing tracks I used hasn't complained. It seems that another company who have used the backing tracks and then copyrighted the whole package.

Interestingly, I first learned of this backing tracks by someone else playing over it on YouTube. Looks like soundcloud are more sensitive information to copyright issues? I don't know, I'm kinda guessing this, but if a professional musician like Pete doesn't know, then a total amateur like me has no chance.
 
Actually in this case it sounds like that wouldn't help. The person who created the backing tracks I used hasn't complained. It seems that another company who have used the backing tracks and then copyrighted the whole package.

Interestingly, I first learned of this backing tracks by someone else playing over it on YouTube. Looks like soundcloud are more sensitive information to copyright issues? I don't know, I'm kinda guessing this, but if a professional musician like Pete doesn't know, then a total amateur like me has no chance.
One of the best things I bought when I started playing was BIAB. (Band in a Box). I can make my own back tracks now instead of trying to scare something up on the internet. Now it won't sound as great with some tunes, like with a karaoke track, because some songs have a certain beat or hook that is hard to duplicate. With those types of tunes the song loses it's flavor when using a generic backing.
 
I always thought that some commercial backing tracks used some kind of electronic watermark/copyright mark etc. Which sites like 'Soundcloud' can detect when they are uploaded.

NO-ONE has a problem with my tracks as they are the property of the owner/player and don't contain any tags of any description🙂
 
So I just got a reply from Larry at jazzbacks. He claims that this is a mistake and has given me some detail to put into a dispute with SoundCloud. I'll let you know what happens.

Good for you.

OK, I wonder if that means that Cristelle used it without permission?

Either way there does need to be something i place to stop this happening because even if she or her label had licensed it for commercial use, if someone else also licenses it (for whatever), then that first use shouldn't stop them using it.
 
It's kinda interesting. Just because the originator of the track says it's ok for me to use it doesn't necessarily mean SoundCloud will agree with him. As we noted earlier, it's not actually him who has claimed copyright. Some recording company has told SoundCloud that they have copyright, whether that's right or wrong would I guess need to be proven in a court of law, not by the originator saying 'it's mine'. Soundcloud may find it easier to simply go with the original claim.
 
It's unlikely to be the record company themselves, they will probably have employed a company such as
IODA.

My own label distribution agreement includes:

"grants to PMD...to third party digital music and entertainment services...collect, administer..."

I won't bore you with legalities, but the upshot is when I publish to Youtube my own track/video (I recorded and own all composition/publishing rights to) on my own label , IODA can have it taken down or put ads on it. Because the distributor (PMD) has granted them the right to do that. And any label, however small, probably has a digital distribution deal similar to that because you need the distributor on order to get you music on iTunes, Amazon and possibly Spotity.
 
Hello, I have a question about this part of the forum rules:
  • By uploading or submitting any materials to us, you automatically
    grant (or warrant that the owner of such rights has expressly granted) us a perpetual, royalty-free, irrevocable, non-exclusive right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, disclose, post, remove and/or distribute such materials or incorporate such materials into any form, medium, or technology now known or later developed throughout the universe.
I must be misunderstanding this, because to me it implies that Cafe Saxophone disregards copyright laws. For example, let's say I post a recording of one of my own copyrighted compositions. The above text seems to say that I have signed away all of my rights to it. Could you please explain what is really meant by this text?

Thank you.
 
I understand your concerns, but the words "non-exclusive right" means that the only rights signed away are your right to disallow Cafesaxophone to use the content in a broad context.

You still retain all your copyright.

I admit it appears to imply more than would actually be fair or realistic (such is the problem of trying to word something as one paragraph that would normally be a 20 page contract)

The reasoning behind this is that (for example) we do not want people to post a video, initiate a lot of discussion in a thread about that track, and then make a nonsense of the whole thread by demanding its removal, as it is the main or only source of that discussion.

The wording about "reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, disclose, post, remove and/or distribute such materials or incorporate such materials into any form, medium," is there to cover automatic use outside of the actual forum, for example i.e. pushing the content through a social feed, that feed may not use the original authors name, and may in fact use the forum's name.

Because we have no control over whether the social medium in this case may adapt, or lack an attribution, means this clause would stop the scenario of someone saying " hey I posted that video on the forum, I didn't grant you the right to then put it on Facebook"

Of course I understand the wording "distribute such materials" may be worrying if it implies we have the right to sell them on, and that is something I should probably look into. Again, it's down to trying to make it concise rather than over lengthy. I could include the word "non-commercially" to preclude that, however again it could be argued that everything is commercial if on a medium that is monetised, ie with advertising revenue on the same page.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the explanation; perhaps there is a better way to word it, but I don't know much about legal language. I didn't actually think anyone here would try to steal my stuff, especially considering that I am merely an amateur, but that passage did put up a flag in my head when I signed up for the forum.

Another question -- in what situations does the forum put its content elsewhere on the Internet, like social media?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

Popular Discussions on the Café

Latest Song of the Month

Forum statistics

Topics
31,923
Messages
565,017
Members
7,965
Latest member
MarcKeller
Back
Top Bottom