Saxophone beginners Voicing

[wakyct]

I would appreciate some advice on voicing.

I've been doing a basic (alto) mouthpiece + neck exercise for a month, about five minutes a day. Blow an Ab, and bend it down as far as I can. Most of the time I can only get to F. Sometimes it's F#, and a handful of times E.

Honestly it's a bit frustrating, as I've read and watched many people talking about running a scale on the MP + neck (or just the MP, which I've tried and is 10x as difficult), as if it's no big thing. From reading older threads here like this one I get the sense that it may take some practice but what I'm wondering is if I'm doing something fundamentally incorrect.

I've talked about it a little with my teacher, but beyond keeping a relaxed embouchure and some advice about what syllable sounds to make to approximate how you want to voice the note I feel like I don't have much to go on.

The last couple of days I've tried relaxing my embouchure even more and pushing the MP further in, tuning this by blowing a middle B and then the overtone on the low B. Incidentally much of the time I tend to blow the harmonic above the octave here (the F) which makes me wonder if that's indicative of something.

Anyway, after a month of this I guess I feel I had to vent a little, so forgive me, but I would appreciate any further pointers.

 

[skeller047]

Unless you plan to take a couple of choruses on the mouthpiece and neck alone, then why do this? I really don’t think it helps anything, and in your case it may have done some harm, as you are stressing about it.

If you want to practice bending a note, then just do it on A2, then move on to others. It’s a valuable expressive technique, though often overused (I did it for several years on every note, it took a while for me to stop it!) Try to bend with your internal mouth shape, rather than using your lips - or worse, your jaw.

Regarding voicing in general, I prefer thinking of vowel shapes (“EEE”, “AAHHH”, “OOOO”) rather than thinking of tongue position, but some folks like to think of high tongue, arched tongue, low tongue. Whatever works for you.

When doing overtones, I am aware of a “focal position” of the note in my mouth and throat, which changes as I go up and down the spectrum.

If you are overblowing a low B, and have trouble getting the first overtone (B2), but land on the second one (F#2), your embouchure might be too tight. Try “slurring” between B2 - normal fingering - and low B overblown one octave. This will help you get the focal placement for that first overtone.

 

[Guenne]

MP + neck

I've never seen anybody running a scale on MPC and neck. Of course you can do it on the MPC alone, it's an exercise to finetune pressure against the reed and air pressure.

Can you point me to a video where I can see someone running scales on MPC and neck? 🙂

All these exercises are - IMHO - exercises to gain flexibility, and there is no use in overdoing.

If you are talking about MPC alone it very much depends on where your tongue sits in your mouth to be able to maintain a good airstream (and flexibility of the airstream too) while loosening your embouchure.

There's also an exercise in Don Sinta's book "Voicing", where you play high F with the Alt key and try to bend it down in half steps up to an octave 🙂 (I can do about a major 6th).

Cheers, Guenne

 

[Woodpad]

Anyway, after a month of this I guess I feel I had to vent a little, so forgive me, but I would appreciate any further pointers

The last innovation on this subject I heard, is to relax the lips and do a very subtle pull down of the middle of the lower lip.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I've been doing a basic (alto) mouthpiece + neck exercise for a month, about five minutes a day. Blow an Ab, and bend it down as far as I can. Most of the time I can only get to F. Sometimes it's F#, and a handful of times E.

Honestly it's a bit frustrating, as I've read and watched many people talking about running a scale on the MP + neck (or just the MP, which I've tried and is 10x as difficult),

I think mouthpiece only is useful. Mouthpiece and neck not so much, although I have to admit I haven't heard of it let alone tried it. The mouthpiece alone is good because it involves a change your embouchure beyond just relaxing your (lower) jaw.

If you want to practice bending a note, then just do it on A2, then move on to others.

The exercise is not so much about bending but working with your oral cavity. For note bending or vibrato exercises I think it makes sense to practice it on fingered notes and A2 is a good place to start.

I have found the mouthpiece exercise extremely useful, but obviously it is not for everyone.

 

[Guenne]

I have found the mouthpiece exercise extremely useful, but obviously it is not for everyone.

@wakyct talks about MPC and neck.
When I'm doing MPC plus neck exercises I only try to produce 3 notes.
On alto Ab, then a ninth above and then one more note above (I think it's a minor sixth above the ninth).

 

[wakyct]

Thanks everyone for setting me straight, I think I just got mixed up on what I was doing. As far as the point of the exercise goes yes I'm trying to work on voicing -- getting more in tune (no pun intended) with throat, tongue, etc. -- rather than specifically bending notes.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Notes need bending to a greater or lesser extent. Especially up top. The mouthpiece exercise imo is to inform, educate and exercise the embouchure to facilitate this.
Once accomplished it's of no further use. It has no intrinsic value. Perhaps a novelty party trick.

 

[skeller047]

I think mouthpiece only is useful.

You are not alone. I happen to think it’s not very useful, but I’ll admit that Mel Martin got me to try it for a while long ago. As a teaching tool, with the teacher’s guidance, I can see its usefulness. Otherwise, I’m more in the party trick camp.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Ooh! We're having a party, with camp tricks?

 

[skeller047]

Who are the camp tricks? I’m too old to be one, those days are gone for me…

 

[wakyct]

Curiosity won out at the start of practice tonight and I spent a few minutes with just the MP, and where before half the time I couldn't get a proper note now I can go from A down to B somewhat consistently with the same embouchure. So I guess the old saying is true, there's more than one way to annoy your neighbors.

 

[Guenne]

There is a mouthpiece exercise that's IMHO equally important.

Play a note with crescendo and try to stay on the same pitch.
Same with decrescendo. That's very hard, as MPC alone is very unstable.

A down to B somewhat consistently with the same embouchure

I don't think that embouchure doesn't change, but the changes are very subtle.

Having spent dozens of practice sessions with "exaggeratet exercises" as Liebman called them I on one hand doubt the explanation that's behind it (air speed, voicing etc.). On the other hand if there is one thing in sax playing I never struggled with it's intonation and flexibility.

I did some MPC playing with one of my students yesterday, and he could do a minor third down rather easily (he started playing in September 23). He was not able to go further down. I think that's just lack of strengh - loosening the embouchure while "blowing harder".
So as a conclusion I think MPC exercises are gold to learn a good balance between embouchure and air pressure.

A problem I have (not only with MPC exercises) with students is estethic.
Some people refuse practicing something that sounds so ugly to sound better in the end.

Cheers, Guenne

 

[cjR]

Anyone got thoughts on using a "silencer" for MP exercises ? Takes the sting out of the MP practice but does the back pressure hinder anything ?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Anyone got thoughts on using a "silencer" for MP exercises ? Takes the sting out of the MP practice but does the back pressure hinder anything

There may be a tiny bit of extra back pressure. But whether it hinders anything might be difficult to say. But it doesn’t seem to.

 

[Pete Thomas]

some advice about what syllable sounds to make to approximate how you want to voice the note I feel like I don't have much to go on.

I often hear people talking about syllable (or vowel) sounds to make with their embouchure and I have never understood how to do it. It seems to me there is a mouthpiece in my mouth so I can't actually speak. OTOH I do understand it with flute.

When I'm doing MPC plus neck exercises I only try to produce 3 notes.
On alto Ab, then a ninth above and then one more note above (I think it's a minor sixth above the ninth).

That's a huge range, I can only play notes below, hardly any variation above and you are doing almost two octaves?!

and where before half the time I couldn't get a proper note now I can go from A down to B somewhat consistently with the same embouchure.

A down to B is very good. Well done.

 

[Guenne]

That's a huge range, I can only play notes below, hardly any variation above and you are doing almost two octaves?!

Hey Pete,
I'm not talking about a scale, I'm talking about 3 notes.

Talking Tenor it's F#, G# an octave above and E a minor 6th above G#.
(MPC and neck!)

 

[Pete Effamy]

I'd never heard of this until way after my formative years, and way after that too. @Guenne and @Pete Thomas - I'm presuming that you were fairly advanced before trying this too - so my question is:

What/how do you think this improves on what you would do on the saxophone itself?

 

[Guenne]

What/how do you think this improves on what you would do on the saxophone itself?

fairly advanced

Right, I would not recommend this for beginners, except the concert Ab for Alto and E for Tenor - and still I'm not sure if it works for vintage instruments.

Talking Tenor F# (for me) comes close to the "normal" range, G# the lower altissimo, and E the higher altissimo notes.

Cheers, Guenne

 

[Pete Effamy]

Right, I would not recommend this for beginners, except the concert Ab for Alto and E for Tenor - and still I'm not sure if it works for vintage instruments.

Talking Tenor F# (for me) comes close to the "normal" range, G# the lower altissimo, and E the higher altissimo notes.

Cheers, Guenne

But how does it improve your sax playing over what you would practice on the saxophone itself?