Playing the saxophone The science of Swing!

[turf3]

I probably should have qualified my statement to reflect how "Basie style" swing is taught to students learning to play in the jazz style. I agree that "Country Swing" or "Shuffle" rely heavily on the bass drum and backbeat (that I call "boom chuck" music). A high school jazz ensemble's literature often includes this style of music along with latin, jazz rock, and ballad styles, but the core element of learning big band "swing" is learning how to play the Niel Hefti Basie type classic swing tunes in the correct style.

And then the next task in becoming a mature musician is to learn about the vast arry of time feels and ways to swing that aren't Nestico or Hefti charts. That stuff figures heavily in the scholastic high school jazz band repertoire because it's relatively easy to make it not stink in performance, but actual grown-up jazz musicians have to get their heads around Charles Mingus, Bix Beiderbecke, and any manner of people in between, all of whom had their own individual time feels.

We say "big band swing" as if it's fully characterized by Hefti's and Nestico's scholastic charts, but Ellington, Goodman, Herman, Kenton, and any number of other bands were dramatically different. We do our serious high school students a disservice when we teach them, inadvertently, that "big band swing" is equal to ~1965 Basie and that that's the only way to play.

 

[funkyrag]

From a Big Bill Broonzy documentary:

At a party some people are talking to Big Bill Broonzy, and someone asked him "how would you define swing?" and he had this image of an "Arab" whom maybe he didn't see in person but saw in movies, what he called an Arab, and he said, well you know the way an Arab rides a horse, well some guys ride a horse and wants to get where they're going in a hurry, so he sits right on the horses neck, and he ain't swinging, and the other guy likes to do it correct so he sits right in the middle and upright, and he ain't swinging, but he said the Arab sits right on the back of the horse, letting the horse do all the work, and so it is like the definition of swing which is sitting on the back of the beat, not pushing it or working hard, just laying on it...

 

[Pete Thomas]

We do our serious high school students a disservice when we teach them, inadvertently, that "big band swing" is equal to ~1965 Basie and that that's the only way to play.

Absolutely. Any good pro drummer will know when to play jazz or swing appropriately depending on era. If it’s more of a 30s/40s swing style then there is plenty of light four on the floor bass drum and snare backbeat examples I’m sure. Back then it was all about playing for dancers. Gene Krupa, Chick Webb. And listen to those great swing and jive bands - Lionel Hampton, Cab Calloway, Louis Jordan, Prima etc.

The drummer can then be instructed to make sure his ride cymbal is in sync with the bass.

And yes, for later era styles bass drum and snare can absolutely be more random. But even then I would say the drummer is just as important at stating the beat and I’m not sure it is led by the bass player. It has to be the whole rhythm section. And talking of Basie, Freddie was as important in that regard.

 

[stefank]

Somewhere in his book "Beneath The Underdog" Mingus states that when a band is playing well there is something like a circle about the beat to play in - some may push forward, others hold back, but when the band is collectively uncertain everybody locks in right on the beat. Well, he wrote something like that. It's a very long time since I read that book!

 

[Pete Thomas]

when a band is playing well there is something like a circle about the beat to play in - some may push forward, others hold back, but when the band is collectively uncertain everybody locks in right on the beat.

I would disagree. People can be playing badly and there is still a circle about the beat.

 

[stefank]

I would disagree. People can be playing badly and there is still a circle about the beat.

I don't doubt that Mingus would have admitted that possibility! I think that he's making the point that good performers are often playing in relation to the beat rather than strictly on it. Then (digressing somewhat) you've got those who can give a feeling of looseness while being quite tight - the drummer Jim Keltner springs to mind.

 

[Dr G]

When I was directing high school jazz ensembles I learned by reading teaching instruction methods and by attending clinics that the "role" of keeping the time or tempo is not the responsibility of the drummer, it is the job of the bass player. This is especially true in jazz or swing music where the drummer uses the bass drum very sparingly while providing the swing eighth style on the ride cymbal and hi hat. The primary role of the drummer in this definition is to not keep the "time", but to provide kicks and accents to reinforce and accentuate the melody of the song.

Simplicity is great for teaching rudimentary concepts, but one should realize that the real world is different.

Consider a big band. Where is the jazz tenor player? Where is the lead trumpet? Can they even hear the bass, or do they take time and tempo cues from the drums?

Disclaimer: Decades in big bands as a tenor player who often could not hear the bass.

 

[Dr G]

I would disagree. People can be playing badly and there is still a circle about the beat.

This reminds me of those mass bands with dozens of players, none of whom is in tune, yet there is a central pitch if one listens from far enough away. (And it keeps sounding better the farther away you get.)

 

[turf3]

"Do you know 'Far, Far Away'?"
"yeah"
"Well, then, please play Far, Far, Away!"

 

[farina_man]

Yes Yes! Baloo is the way to go! King Louie too.... With King Louie's sidekick representing the more classical approach.

View attachment 21563

Yes, they would know how to swing, being voiced by swing-band leader drummer/singer Phil Harris, and New Orleans trumpeter/singer Louis Prima!

 

[r. giuseppe]

I think most types of grooves that are perceived as swinging - even non-triolic ones - have to do with constant micro-delays, particularly between instruments. The difference between dragging/rushing vs. swinging lies in the mutual agreement between musicians, to keep this delay alive while not changing tempo.
It requires not only understanding and feeling but also a certain type of confidence to „allow“ this happen, if you know what I mean.

How soloist can „swing“ without a rhythm section while playing even eighths is another story. Not sure about how this works from an analytic point of view.

 

[Pete Thomas]

How soloist can „swing“ without a rhythm section while playing even eighths is another story. Not sure about how this works from an analytic point of view.

It may be to do with subtle use of accents and articulation.

 

[r. giuseppe]

It may be to do with subtle use of accents and articulation.

I think so too. But for me it’s harder to grasp or explain. The difficulty with explaining swing is the heterogeneity. Once you have an explanation for what makes a piece of music swing, someone comes around the corner, does exactly the opposite and swings like hell.

 

[Targa]

Maybe trying to analyse swing is the musical equivalent of:
“ Analysing comedy is like dissecting a frog. Nobody laughs and the frog dies. ” — Barry Cryer

 

[r. giuseppe]

Yeah, kind of. But not completely. Both swing and comedy are traditionally learned by imitation but CAN successfully be taught.

 

[Dr G]

I think most types of grooves that are perceived as swinging - even non-triolic ones - have to do with constant micro-delays, particularly between instruments. The difference between dragging/rushing vs. swinging lies in the mutual agreement between musicians, to keep this delay alive while not changing tempo.
It requires not only understanding and feeling but also a certain type of confidence to „allow“ this happen, if you know what I mean.

How soloist can „swing“ without a rhythm section while playing even eighths is another story. Not sure about how this works from an analytic point of view.

Is it possible to swing even eighths? As tempo increases, there is often a point where swing is lost as eighth notes trend even.

 

[rhysonsax]

Is it possible to swing even eighths? As tempo increases, there is often a point where swing is lost as eighth notes trend even.

Harry Edison could swing crotchets (quarter notes), at least I thought he did when I saw him in 1983.

One of his pet phrases crops up at about 1:20 into this recording:

View: https://youtu.be/IQ4i_EslLiA


Rhys

 

[Dr G]

Harry Edison could swing crotchets (quarter notes), at least I thought he did when I saw him in 1983.

If one accepts that even eighths can swing, then one must add articulation and phrasing to the mix of the analysis - it's not just about time.

 

[r. giuseppe]

Is it possible to swing even eighths?

I guess it depends on the definition of swing. If it’s swing as in early Basie and Ellington, then swing is triolic, even at pretty fast tempo.
But if you pick a random solo e.g. by Dexter Gordon, you will find a lot of eighths that are much closer to even than to triolic. And to me they can still swing a lot. But it’s a different kind of swing and you may not call it that. There is still an asymmetry in articulation though, but much less in timing than in traditional swing.

 

[r. giuseppe]

If one accepts that even eighths can swing, then one must add articulation and phrasing to the mix of the analysis - it's not just about time.

You were a second faster…🙂