Playing the saxophone So what IS altissimo on the sax anyway?

[Hoosierken]

Because I have so many vintage saxophones, I think that the definition may be shifting with the advancements. Getting to high F# is a world of difference between my Temu soprano that has a high F# key, one of mine that has a front F and those that don't. Without the front F, I cannot get to F3 or F#3 while playing no matter how much I practice them.

 

[turf3]

Altissimo is, quite simply, the notes in the second harmonic and above.

Fundamental notes on the saxophone are from low Bb to all-open middle C# (plus middle D if you use the palm key w/o octave key as an alternate).

"Clarion register" notes are the first harmonic, an octave above the fundamental, from all-closed middle D to plam key high F or high F# if so equipped.

Altissimo register notes are second, third, or higher harmonics, a twelfth, two octaves, or more above the fundamental: from front E up.

Of course there is a bit of overlap as some notes can be obtained by more than one method, so the E third ledger line above the staff can be played as the first harmonic of a palm key fingering (clarion register) or as a second harmonic using the F tone hole as a vent. It's an octave and a fifth above G, but because of the size and position of the F tone hole used as a vent, it sounds a whole step higher as E. When played that way it's an altissimo note. When played as a palm key note it's a clarion note.

 

[mrblackbat]

Altissimo register notes are second, third, or higher harmonics, a twelfth, two octaves, or more above the fundamental: from front E up.

So given this, I can play the second harmonic of a bottom Bb as an overtones; why isn't that then an altissimo note?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Clarion register" notes are the first harmonic, an octave above the fundamental, from all-closed middle D to plam key high F or high F# if so equipped.

I struggle with the use of the word clarion being applied to the sax. It was used for the middle register of the clarinet because of its reminiscence to the Clarion trumpet.

As for your “Chalumeau = fundamental “ - I can only find the French definition of Chalumeau (other than the instrument) -

1. 1. blowtorch
   
   
2. 2. blowpipe
   
   
3. 3. pipe
   
   
4. 4. blowlamp
   
   
5. 5. reed

 

[mizmar]

I now see the solution.

Let's all just abandon using the term "altisimo" as it's just something carried over, vaguely, from the clarinet world.
Instead we nick "Super" from the raspberry blowers & tube sliders association!

Always happy to join in making stuff up

When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

‘The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

‘The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

 

[turf3]

So given this, I can play the second harmonic of a bottom Bb as an overtones; why isn't that then an altissimo note?

You mean a top line F, but played with the fingering of a low Bb?

Well, strictly speaking it IS an altissimo note. It's a twelfth up from the fundamental. In fact, playing those kinds of notes and working the fingerings up is exactly how people learn altissimo - take that top line F sounded with the fingering of low Bb, and gradually raise fingers till you're up into the range above palm key F.

 

[turf3]

I struggle with the use of the word clarion being applied to the sax. It was used for the middle register of the clarinet because of its reminiscence to the Clarion trumpet.

As for your “Chalumeau = fundamental “ - I can only find the French definition of Chalumeau (other than the instrument) -

1. 1. blowtorch
   
   
2. 2. blowpipe
   
   
3. 3. pipe
   
   
4. 4. blowlamp
   
   
5. 5. reed

The chalumeau register, whether in the clarinet where it's standard terminology or in the saxophone where it's rarely used, simply means the register of a woodwind where the pitch is the fundamental pitch (first mode vibration) of the air column in the pipe. On flute this runs from low C or low B to all-open third space C#: on sax from low Bb or low A to all-open third space C#; on clarinet from low E to throat A#.

If you set the air column into second-mode vibration in a saxophone or flute, it sounds an octave higher, and that's what I'm calling "clarion register", what flute players call "the second octave". Now because of the peculiar characteristics of the clarinet, the second-mode vibration isn't available and the first overblown register sounds a twelfth above the fundamental, thrid-mode vibration. On flute this register runs from third line D to all-open second ledger line C#; on sax from third line D to palm key F or palm key F# if so equipped.

Higher modes of vibration of the air colums are called "altissimo" notes. On clarinet it's those above the clarion register, on flute we call it "third octave" though it actually starts with D on the space above the second ledger line; on sax it starts with the fork E. I haven't played enough clarinet lately to be familiar with the transition notes there; I'd have to get mine out and shed on it a bit.

I admit that using "chalumeau" and "clarion" to identify saxophone and flute registers is a bit unusual but it's fully supported by physics and since those designations work well on clarinet I see no reason not to use them for saxophone and flute. Especially on saxophone where altissimo and clarion registers overlap and there seems to be great confusion.

 

[Dr G]

This should be very simple…

Where we get confusion is that in the old days there was no dedicated F# palm key, in most cases F was the top note of the nornal range so F# and above were available usually by altissimo fingerings.

The high F# remains optional with some companies (ex. Yamaha “WOF”).

 

[mrblackbat]

You mean a top line F, but played with the fingering of a low Bb?

Well, strictly speaking it IS an altissimo note. It's a twelfth up from the fundamental. In fact, playing those kinds of notes and working the fingerings up is exactly how people learn altissimo - take that top line F sounded with the fingering of low Bb, and gradually raise fingers till you're up into the range above palm key F.

Yes this exactly; I don't know anyone who would ever call it altissimo.

Altissimo literally means very high. An F on the top line is not very high.

Overtones are invaluable in order to learn it for sure, but do overtones = altissimo? I don't think so.

 

[Pete Effamy]

The chalumeau register, whether in the clarinet where it's standard terminology or in the saxophone where it's rarely used, simply means the register of a woodwind where the pitch is the fundamental pitch (first mode vibration) of the air column in the pipe. On flute this runs from low C or low B to all-open third space C#: on sax from low Bb or low A to all-open third space C#; on clarinet from low E to throat A#.

If you set the air column into second-mode vibration in a saxophone or flute, it sounds an octave higher, and that's what I'm calling "clarion register", what flute players call "the second octave". Now because of the peculiar characteristics of the clarinet, the second-mode vibration isn't available and the first overblown register sounds a twelfth above the fundamental, thrid-mode vibration. On flute this register runs from third line D to all-open second ledger line C#; on sax from third line D to palm key F or palm key F# if so equipped.

Higher modes of vibration of the air colums are called "altissimo" notes. On clarinet it's those above the clarion register, on flute we call it "third octave" though it actually starts with D on the space above the second ledger line; on sax it starts with the fork E. I haven't played enough clarinet lately to be familiar with the transition notes there; I'd have to get mine out and shed on it a bit.

I admit that using "chalumeau" and "clarion" to identify saxophone and flute registers is a bit unusual but it's fully supported by physics and since those designations work well on clarinet I see no reason not to use them for saxophone and flute. Especially on saxophone where altissimo and clarion registers overlap and there seems to be great confusion.

It's not a bad idea, but the actual usage from clarinet was likening it to other instruments, not as a physics definition. I've never heard it used in conjunction with other instruments.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Let's all just abandon using the term "altisimo" as it's just something carried over, vaguely, from the clarinet world.
Instead we nick "Super" from the raspberry blowers & tube sliders association!

I prefer "bloody high".

 

[mizmar]

I prefer "bloody high".

Maybe we need another poll? Like:
What should notes played above high F be called?
- screechy
- bloody high
- super

I'll leave out "altisimo" - wouldn't want to bias the results (at least I leaned that from this thread) 😛

 

[mizmar]

Looks quite good


Altissimo
The technique of playing high notes not using the instrument's standard keys in the higher range. This enables the player to play notes above high E/F. High E and F often have standard and altissimo fingerings (on modern horns).

Saxophones - Saxophone Glossary

A better glossary of the most common terms used by saxophone players in regard to instruments and playing. Now you'll know what everyone's talking about.

cafesaxophone.com

Clearly doesn't need updating following this discussion

 

[Pete Thomas]

The high F# remains optional with some companies (ex. Yamaha “WOF”).

Yes this would be why I think it's not correct to assume altissimo starts at G. F# can either be altissimo or not.

But it appears the majority so far don't think F# can be altissimo. Obviously it used to always be altissimo before any saxophones had the palm key. So if you have played a horn fall your life which had no F#, how would you have got an F# if the altissimo F# did not exist?

 

[mizmar]

But it appears the majority so far don't think F# can be altissimo

Based on the poll which doesn't give the "F# and up" as an option?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Based on the poll which doesn't give the "F# and up" as an option?

Which is why I voted for something else, the actual correct answer is not available.

 

[mizmar]

Which is why I voted for something else, the actual correct answer is not available.

Me to - but it is a classic questionnaire bias... Anyway, 8 votes is hardly statistically significant

 

[turf3]

I am going to say the same thing for the nth time.

Altissimo is notes above the first harmonic, second mode vibration. Front E and F are altissimo notes. Palm key E, F, F# (if so equipped) are not. High F# played without use of the high F# key is altissimo.

Since (except on a tiny number of instruments) high G and above are only accessible by overblowing lower fingerings a twelfth or two octaves or more, all the notes at G and above are altissimo notes.

If someone were to choose to put a high F#, G, G#, and A key on a saxophone, all those notes being played by overblowing an octave, then those notes played that way would not be altissimo notes but simply extensions of the palm key notes, in the register I prefer to call "clarion".

 

[Pete Effamy]

But it appears the majority so far don't think F# can be altissimo. Obviously it used to always be altissimo before any saxophones had the palm key. So if you have played a horn fall your life which had no F#, how would you have got an F# if the altissimo F# did not exist?

Yes, this. Written ranges have long been transcended, but as a working rule of thumb they are still valid.

 

[Pete Effamy]

If someone were to choose to put a high F#, G, G#, and A key on a saxophone, all those notes being played by overblowing an octave, then those notes played that way would not be altissimo notes but simply extensions of the palm key notes, in the register I prefer to call "clarion".

That just seems musically daft. If a composer writes those notes and asks if ok as they are altissimo and the reply is; “not today sunshine!”.