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jeremyjuicewah
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Tone or Sound Rock and roll crackle
- Thread starter jeremyjuicewah
- Start date
Their farewell gig? Are they quitting? Leaving the country?? I love bands like this.
richardr
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They're quitting. They haven't fallen-out or anything like that but they're all on the older side of middle age, have their day jobs or businesses, wives and families - they've all got other things to do with their time. I suspect it's not absolutely the end; they'll probably get together from time to time.
richardr
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While I'm on this thread, I've always thought the basic rock'n'roll "rasp", "crackle" or whatever you call it does not depend on special techniques such as using voice to produce "growl" and I was rather surprised that Tony (don't know his surname) of the Ribble & Booze Band said it was. I'd have liked to discuss it further but in a crowded pub, with the audience mobbing the band between sets wasn't the right time or place.
I used to want to play like Hank Carter before I got sucked into jazz and when I tried tenors, how well they would "rasp" was always an important choice criterion. Anyway, my very first sax is the best "rasper" of all. It's a battered Grassi which I don't often play. Last night, after cleaning my TJ, seeing my Grassi standing there virtually asking to be played, I shoved my regular mouthpiece/reed combination on it and gave it a blow; immediately I got a rasp that sounded right to my ears - not necessarily the same as what everyone else hears. Probably Mike has already got this far and wants the "growl" effect but in case it's of any help, these seem to be the factors that help me to "rasp":
1. The sax itself - my Grassi rasps far better than my TJ.
2. Reed/mouthpiece combination - I'm playing with a Berg Larsen 110 - 1 - SMS and a Bari "hard" plastic reed which I've filed inexpertly to make it soft enough for me to play. Coincidentally this isn't too far from Hank Carter's setup to which I referred above. I remember seeing a mouthpiece advertised on the internet that was guaranteed to produce that rock'n'roll rasp.
3. Technique: it's one of those things I just do without thinking so it's difficult to describe except that when I want to rasp I start each note firmly with my tongue and fairly blast down the mouthpiece.
A word of warning: don't start spending money or wasting vast amounts of time on following my advice without checking it out first. I'm far from being an expert and probably don't know what I'm on about besides which you may already be getting the same thing as me and you want to take it further.
I used to want to play like Hank Carter before I got sucked into jazz and when I tried tenors, how well they would "rasp" was always an important choice criterion. Anyway, my very first sax is the best "rasper" of all. It's a battered Grassi which I don't often play. Last night, after cleaning my TJ, seeing my Grassi standing there virtually asking to be played, I shoved my regular mouthpiece/reed combination on it and gave it a blow; immediately I got a rasp that sounded right to my ears - not necessarily the same as what everyone else hears. Probably Mike has already got this far and wants the "growl" effect but in case it's of any help, these seem to be the factors that help me to "rasp":
1. The sax itself - my Grassi rasps far better than my TJ.
2. Reed/mouthpiece combination - I'm playing with a Berg Larsen 110 - 1 - SMS and a Bari "hard" plastic reed which I've filed inexpertly to make it soft enough for me to play. Coincidentally this isn't too far from Hank Carter's setup to which I referred above. I remember seeing a mouthpiece advertised on the internet that was guaranteed to produce that rock'n'roll rasp.
3. Technique: it's one of those things I just do without thinking so it's difficult to describe except that when I want to rasp I start each note firmly with my tongue and fairly blast down the mouthpiece.
A word of warning: don't start spending money or wasting vast amounts of time on following my advice without checking it out first. I'm far from being an expert and probably don't know what I'm on about besides which you may already be getting the same thing as me and you want to take it further.
jeremyjuicewah
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Speaking from experience, there is always (well we all hope) the other side of middle age. Loads of old strat thrashers stumbling around looking for a gig, geriatric skin bashers, bass zombies and even the odd sax sextagerian brushing the dust from the shoulder pads and softening up the crusty old make up brush.
The child rearing years are a busy and not entirely enjoyable interlude in a musical dream.
Yuk. (sorry kids, just in case you guess who papa Juicewah is)
jeremyjuicewah
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No chance Richard. Thanks for all your tips but the PPT and Rico plasticised are my set up and there is an inclination to rasp inherent in it. Its the overdrive I am after. I had a very very good sesh last night. I find growling quite hard work but am working on it and am pleased enough with the results. But I also found that I was able to sub tone down on the low Bs with a 3 reed. Not perfect, some volume sometimes lacking where the note does not begin strongly enough, but this was out of reach with this set up just a few days ago. Makes me realise how very lazy I have become. I practice my parts and not the sax. I am particularly pleased with the sub toning as if I can do that I have a lot more control over the sounds I want to make. It took me back to my first few lessons with my Chinese alto years ago. Teacher got fed up with the duck noise and I learned to sub tone. Back to square one but it worked well for me then in technique in general and I am sure it will work again.
Happy Sunday
Mike
We are all different! I was often told that I growled all time. It was in the early 80's and I was triying to play in a big band!! I didn't growl constantly, my tone was/is just different compared to the other guys. We were 4 players that did a recording playing the same scales and licks at the same tempo and without any effects. We were all at the same level. Just playing for fun and we were not well educated in music. The scales and licks were played legato and with tongue on every tone. We agreed that we played/shared the same sax (a Yamaha 62) and mouthpiece (a metal Berg Larsen 100/2 SMS). Something that we all could play. We didn't share reed but we were all using a LaVoz medium reed. No effects, just play as clean and pure as we could. The difference was big. My tone was more "growler, raspy or gritty" compared to the other guys. One guy had a very pure/clean tone that would be nice in classical saxophone (he later started to play classic clarinette). Two of the guys continued with jazz/big band. I took my raspy tone and accepted the fact that I would do better as a 100% Rocksax hobby player. The journey began: New and bigger mouthpieces! Harder reeds. Started to play King and Martin saxes (today I'm back on an allround sax, YTS 25!) Practised long tones à la Clarence Clemons ("unleash the animal inside you") ... . But sometimes I miss to be a part of saxsection!
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John Laughter
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Mike thanks for the plug and sorry for the late reply. Just found several posts that I was not aware of until today. Will add some notes later tonight. Some excellent suggestions so far by excellent musicians!
John Laughter
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I found these credits for "Sick & Tired". Fats Domino also had a good version;
Come On Home (album) - Wikipedia
Great bari solo.
It is the growl in various degrees. Some are playing in a more laid back manner and some are using some real good force (airflow) to add attitude and a more agressive tone.
The growl and flutter both take a little time to learn without thinking about but I really feel that most players can do it.
I always suggest using the m/p with reed first to get the coordination of humming (or singing) and air flow going at the same time. Just a lot easier to do it in steps. After you get a good feel for it on the m/p then add the neck. Once that is working then add the sax. Same with the "flutter tone". M/p with first.
As stated, the Plasticover will add a little more of the "rock tone" or edge but as with all reeds you need to buy several boxes to get some real good ones. I have tried cane reeds off and on (use them for concert band) but for kicking rock it is a plasticover for me but it does not have to be. Many rockers still use cane or synthetic from what I have read. Just depends on what works best for you.
As for the type of m/p (baffles/no baffles) it depends on the sound you want or need for your gig. I do agree with a little larger chamber. And a relaxed jaw and a fast full airstream from the gut.
Another small item that can beef up the tone a little is playing without using the octave key but it can get tricky in the upper register beyond high D. But in the mid range you can (with practice) get a mix of the mid and low note note which can produce a little more beef, grit or nastiness to the tone if that is what you want at times.
Here are some thoughts that I have collected over the years on various message boards which may or may not be of some help;
I have used the “hum” technique to produce the growl since 1956. Both the growl and the “flutter tongue” were very popular techniques used by sax players in Rock & Roll and R&B music which was hitting the airwaves in the late 50s. Those of us who joined the local school band and liked the new music were asking the band director what this new “gritty or raspy” sound was that we were hearing on Billboard Top 40 hits featuring Lee Allen and Grady Gaines on tenor and Earl Bostic on alto. This effect was used before the 50s and is still very popular in many forms of music. The 1985 hit Rockin' at Midnight by The Honeydrippers features Keith Evans using a lot of this technique in his tenor solo.
There are other ways to achieve the growl effect from what I have read on the NET over the years but I have only used the method of humming while playing a note to get the growl tone.
I suggest that the best way to learn this technique is to start with the mouthpiece attached to the neck. If you use the entire horn it can be a problem at first due to the coordination involved. Play a note on the neck then start “humming” a note that is higher or lower than the pitch that is coming out of the neck. Some players hum in a falsetto range to get above the note that is produced by the neckpiece. Some players will sing/hum a lower note. For example, when I play a G above the staff on tenor I find that I usually hum the pitch that is close to D below the G.
If you hum the same pitch that is coming out of the neckpiece or sax the effect will be cancelled.
At first you may feel that it is taking a lot of air to play and hum at the same time on the neckpiece. This is natural because you will probably open your throat and exhale too much air as a result of your efforts to hum and exhale at the same time. Easier said than done at first! In time you will learn to control the amount of hum and the coordination will become natural. Now put the horn together and see what happens.
Another approach is to forget the sax mouthpiece and form your mouth to hum/sing as if he is going to sing the word "you" but leave off the "y" so that he got the ooooooo hum sound. For an example, it would be similar to the same sound as the "Ooh" from "Ooh baby baby" by Linda Ronstadt. The mouth is formed as if you were using the m/p.
After you get the "ooooo" sound then add air (exhale). The "oooo" volume will diminish with the addition of the exhaled air which is fine. Your throat area under your chin will rise, or tighten slightly which is normal. The combination of the hum and exhale will produce a rough sound which is normal.
Many of us use the growl in the middle and high range, especially from high A above the staff to high F#. I have found that the most effective area for the growl is starting on 2nd space A of the staff and upward. Once you go below 2nd line G it becomes somewhat garbled.
I have read articles that suggest that you hum a (3rd above the note) being produced on the horn. However, while on stage during a live performance with guitar, piano and bass amps I can’t hear the note that I am humming due to the stage volume. I have never thought about the “3rd above” concept so I can’t comment on it, however if it works for you that is all that matters. I hum in a range that is usually below the notes being played which works for me.
As you practice this effect ask for more advice from other local sax players and review articles on the internet. This is valuable because there is always more than one way to approach any effect.
To listen to examples cut and paste the following titles on YouTube;
LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL—SHIRLEY AND LEE—LEE ALLEN—TENOR
SLIPPIN’ AND SLIDIN’—LITTLE RICHARD—LEE ALLEN—TENOR
KEEP A KNOCKIN’—LITTLE RICHARD—GRADY GAINES—TENOR
SUPER FREAK—RICK JAMES—DANIEL LE’MELLE—TENOR
UNCHAIN MY HEART—JOE COCKER—CLARENCE CLEMONS—TENOR
THE HEAT IS ON—GLEN FREY—DAVID WOODFORD—TENOR
ROCKIN’ AT MIDNIGHT—HONEYDRIPPERS—KEITH EVANS—TENOR
HARDEN MY HEART—QUARTERFLASH—RINDY ROSS—ALTO
FREEWAY OF LOVE—ARETHA FRANKLIN—CLARENCE CLEMONS—TENOR
Other links for the growl;
Saxophone Growl & Growling
Saxophone Frequently Asked Questions
Saxophone Growl effect, how to growl on Sax to get that dirty sax sound.
Come On Home (album) - Wikipedia
Great bari solo.
It is the growl in various degrees. Some are playing in a more laid back manner and some are using some real good force (airflow) to add attitude and a more agressive tone.
The growl and flutter both take a little time to learn without thinking about but I really feel that most players can do it.
I always suggest using the m/p with reed first to get the coordination of humming (or singing) and air flow going at the same time. Just a lot easier to do it in steps. After you get a good feel for it on the m/p then add the neck. Once that is working then add the sax. Same with the "flutter tone". M/p with first.
As stated, the Plasticover will add a little more of the "rock tone" or edge but as with all reeds you need to buy several boxes to get some real good ones. I have tried cane reeds off and on (use them for concert band) but for kicking rock it is a plasticover for me but it does not have to be. Many rockers still use cane or synthetic from what I have read. Just depends on what works best for you.
As for the type of m/p (baffles/no baffles) it depends on the sound you want or need for your gig. I do agree with a little larger chamber. And a relaxed jaw and a fast full airstream from the gut.
Another small item that can beef up the tone a little is playing without using the octave key but it can get tricky in the upper register beyond high D. But in the mid range you can (with practice) get a mix of the mid and low note note which can produce a little more beef, grit or nastiness to the tone if that is what you want at times.
Here are some thoughts that I have collected over the years on various message boards which may or may not be of some help;
I have used the “hum” technique to produce the growl since 1956. Both the growl and the “flutter tongue” were very popular techniques used by sax players in Rock & Roll and R&B music which was hitting the airwaves in the late 50s. Those of us who joined the local school band and liked the new music were asking the band director what this new “gritty or raspy” sound was that we were hearing on Billboard Top 40 hits featuring Lee Allen and Grady Gaines on tenor and Earl Bostic on alto. This effect was used before the 50s and is still very popular in many forms of music. The 1985 hit Rockin' at Midnight by The Honeydrippers features Keith Evans using a lot of this technique in his tenor solo.
There are other ways to achieve the growl effect from what I have read on the NET over the years but I have only used the method of humming while playing a note to get the growl tone.
I suggest that the best way to learn this technique is to start with the mouthpiece attached to the neck. If you use the entire horn it can be a problem at first due to the coordination involved. Play a note on the neck then start “humming” a note that is higher or lower than the pitch that is coming out of the neck. Some players hum in a falsetto range to get above the note that is produced by the neckpiece. Some players will sing/hum a lower note. For example, when I play a G above the staff on tenor I find that I usually hum the pitch that is close to D below the G.
If you hum the same pitch that is coming out of the neckpiece or sax the effect will be cancelled.
At first you may feel that it is taking a lot of air to play and hum at the same time on the neckpiece. This is natural because you will probably open your throat and exhale too much air as a result of your efforts to hum and exhale at the same time. Easier said than done at first! In time you will learn to control the amount of hum and the coordination will become natural. Now put the horn together and see what happens.
Another approach is to forget the sax mouthpiece and form your mouth to hum/sing as if he is going to sing the word "you" but leave off the "y" so that he got the ooooooo hum sound. For an example, it would be similar to the same sound as the "Ooh" from "Ooh baby baby" by Linda Ronstadt. The mouth is formed as if you were using the m/p.
After you get the "ooooo" sound then add air (exhale). The "oooo" volume will diminish with the addition of the exhaled air which is fine. Your throat area under your chin will rise, or tighten slightly which is normal. The combination of the hum and exhale will produce a rough sound which is normal.
Many of us use the growl in the middle and high range, especially from high A above the staff to high F#. I have found that the most effective area for the growl is starting on 2nd space A of the staff and upward. Once you go below 2nd line G it becomes somewhat garbled.
I have read articles that suggest that you hum a (3rd above the note) being produced on the horn. However, while on stage during a live performance with guitar, piano and bass amps I can’t hear the note that I am humming due to the stage volume. I have never thought about the “3rd above” concept so I can’t comment on it, however if it works for you that is all that matters. I hum in a range that is usually below the notes being played which works for me.
As you practice this effect ask for more advice from other local sax players and review articles on the internet. This is valuable because there is always more than one way to approach any effect.
To listen to examples cut and paste the following titles on YouTube;
LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL—SHIRLEY AND LEE—LEE ALLEN—TENOR
SLIPPIN’ AND SLIDIN’—LITTLE RICHARD—LEE ALLEN—TENOR
KEEP A KNOCKIN’—LITTLE RICHARD—GRADY GAINES—TENOR
SUPER FREAK—RICK JAMES—DANIEL LE’MELLE—TENOR
UNCHAIN MY HEART—JOE COCKER—CLARENCE CLEMONS—TENOR
THE HEAT IS ON—GLEN FREY—DAVID WOODFORD—TENOR
ROCKIN’ AT MIDNIGHT—HONEYDRIPPERS—KEITH EVANS—TENOR
HARDEN MY HEART—QUARTERFLASH—RINDY ROSS—ALTO
FREEWAY OF LOVE—ARETHA FRANKLIN—CLARENCE CLEMONS—TENOR
Other links for the growl;
Saxophone Growl & Growling
Saxophone Frequently Asked Questions
Saxophone Growl effect, how to growl on Sax to get that dirty sax sound.
jeremyjuicewah
Senior Member
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Thanks John. Still driving around Spain with a neck a mpc and a reed in the car and still not fluttertonguing. I got to the stage of a slow motor boat, but I have not progressed. However, I still listen to the CD and read the book and enjoy the sounds I am able to make. Growling I can use as a sub for fluttertongue, but its not the same.
Always good to hear from you, thanks for the help.
Cheers
Mike
Always good to hear from you, thanks for the help.
Cheers
Mike
John Laughter
Member
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Hey Mike. You are welcome. Always good to hear from you too and to know that you are still at it. It will come in time. If I can be of any further help just send an email.
John
John
John Laughter
Member
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- 606
- Location
- Macon,GA
Hey Mike. Any success since 2017?
What a great Solo. mmm.... Bari...
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