Playing the saxophone offset tone holes and ergonomics

[Woodpad]

Most saxophones are made with offset tone holes on the main stack. It was introduced on the SBA with some other changes as a means to play faster.
For fast action in your hands it is advised to keep your fingers and wrist in an arched shape to make it easy for the tendons and muscles to move fast.
When playing you can see the muscles move in you lower arm.
Now I am a bit puzzled how this works on an alto. When I play with offset tone holes my right arm arm is closer to the body and my hand and wrist lose the arch shape. So this should affect the ergonomics in a negative way. Another ergonomic effect of offset tone holes is that you have more wriggle room for your fingers, but this will not make them wriggle faster.

Does anyone know how offset tone holes improve finger speed?

 

[mpjbiker]

I don't even notice when switching horns, but I do like the much more direct connection of the table to the left hand bell keys.

 

[noelweston]

I remember when I took a Yama alto and an old Conn into my osteopath, I had a wrist injury years ago and it regularly flared up now and again and was at the time.

He wanted to see how one holds and plays the sax. I demonstrated on the Conn, then told him that the generally accepted line in sax-land is that the offset like on the Yama is 'ergonomically superior'.

He literally started laughing.

I know I'm a bit late to the party on this, but I had a very similar experience with my tenor and an Alexander teacher - "hmm, there's really no way to hold that comfortably, is there!"

I've found by trial and error that I can't play tenors with offset RH keys - so I'm limited to pre-SBA or American horns. I had to play a borrowed TJ raw tenor in a rehearsal last night - lovely instrument, but within 10 minutes got the familiar pins and needles in my right hand/wrist and right neck/shoulder.

I almost gave up playing tenor some years ago, before I found my Martin. Anyone know if there are any modern horns built with inline keywork?

 

[Woodpad]

I know I'm a bit late to the party on this, but I had a very similar experience with my tenor and an Alexander teacher - "hmm, there's really no way to hold that comfortably, is there!"

I've found by trial and error that I can't play tenors with offset RH keys - so I'm limited to pre-SBA or American horns. I had to play a borrowed TJ raw tenor in a rehearsal last night - lovely instrument, but within 10 minutes got the familiar pins and needles in my right hand/wrist and right neck/shoulder.

I almost gave up playing tenor some years ago, before I found my Martin. Anyone know if there are any modern horns built with inline keywork?

You are not the only one with problems with offset keys and more people are looking for new inline saxophone designs. I can't find a good ergonomical backed benefit for this construction and wonder why it became the standard.
On the Selmer site I found a remark that the construction was most benificial for tenors when standing. So do you find any difference between standing and sitting?

Turf explained how changes in the left pinky tableau made the bell keys above the right hand more bulky. My only remaining simple idea is that the mark 6 is designed by and for people with banana fingers who required more room above the right hand keys.

 

[noelweston]

Standing playing tenor is a much more comfortable posture - bottom bow falls roughly in line with my right leg. Doesn't make any difference to my neck and shoulder issues with offset keys though - last night was a standing group.

Sitting playing tenor is a whole other level of awkwardness for me... Fortunately I don't do that very much any more. Again, I can only play inline keywork without discomfort.

 

[DavidUK]

Would new inline horns be off-putting to the mass market for being "old fashioned?"
Surely it would be a struggle to sell them against what is now the norm?

 

[BalancedReaction]

You are not the only one with problems with offset keys and more people are looking for new inline saxophone designs. I can't find a good ergonomical backed benefit for this construction and wonder why it became the standard.

I have a Yamaha tenor (it's the only tenor I have ever played) and my fingers also naturally tend to reach over the pearls toward center, so inline tone holes would fit my hands better.

Would new inline horns be off-putting to the mass market for being "old fashioned?"
Surely it would be a struggle to sell them against what is now the norm?

I think the whole saxophone industry does look back to the past quite a lot. Remakes of 70-year-old instruments and mouthpieces come out again and again.

Perhaps you could market it as an ergonomic benefit with a vintage feel.
"Enjoy our ergonomically superior inline tone holes in the style of the legendary Balanced Action."

 

[Woodpad]

Perhaps you could market it as an ergonomic benefit with a vintage feel.
"Enjoy our ergonomically superior inline tone holes in the style of the legendary Balanced Action."

My kids say that my marketing sense is absent. so I guess that inline saxophones for the straight player is a terrible pitch.

 

[DavidUK]

My kids say that my marketing sense is absent. so I guess that inline saxophones for the straight player is a terrible pitch.

How about for the offset player?

 

[Woodpad]

How about for the offset player?

I don't think that ergonomically not justifiable offset saxophones for the offset players is any better for sales.

 

[JayeNM]

I know I'm a bit late to the party on this, but I had a very similar experience with my tenor and an Alexander teacher - "hmm, there's really no way to hold that comfortably, is there!"

I've found by trial and error that I can't play tenors with offset RH keys - so I'm limited to pre-SBA or American horns. I had to play a borrowed TJ raw tenor in a rehearsal last night - lovely instrument, but within 10 minutes got the familiar pins and needles in my right hand/wrist and right neck/shoulder.

I almost gave up playing tenor some years ago, before I found my Martin. Anyone know if there are any modern horns built with inline keywork?

At the end of the day it might be as simple as this.
My first two horns were a King Cleve and a JK New King, both inline. Played those for several years before I ever even tried a modern horn.

Offset has always felt odd to me, I find zero benefit in it ergonomically and the line some people give of them allowing your fingers to move more quickly or whatnot is not something that my experience confirms, at all. It's less comfortable for me, period.
And my doc suggested the slight wrist rotation required for offset, it actually puts more strain on soft tissue around there.
Just sharing.

 

[DavidUK]

I see a marketing opportunity here but, as with the MkVI, I fear the countless offset owners would poo-poo something better as a retrograde step.
Let's have inline and of course left hand bell keys too, much easier.
Not sure Selmer would ever concede though?

 

[Woodpad]

I see a marketing opportunity here but, as with the MkVI, I fear the countless offset owners would poo-poo something better as a retrograde step.
Let's have inline and of course left hand bell keys too, much easier.
Not sure Selmer would ever concede though?

As the vibrato sax is the only available new inline sax there is certainly room in te market.
If we concentrate on players without banana shaped fingers we can dominate the Asian market.
But this strategy is vulnerable to the sub conscience counter marketing reaction that players who can't play big hand saxophones are smaller in other regions. It is a delicate problem.

After Turfs analysis of the Mk6 lefth hand pinky tableau I looked closer to the one on the 6M.

The force needed for the three Bell keys is mainly dependent on two things: Needle force and length of leverage.
The required strength of the needle is abouth equal for all alto saxophones. So the leverage length is the decive variable and the largest leverage requires the least force.

The leverage can be measured as the shortest distance between the finger position and the center line of the key axis.
The Mk6 has one central pilar for the three key bells. If they aplied the same pinky tableau as the 6M the leverage for the Bb key would be too short (there is also no room at the current position). Therefore the Bb key shifted to the old fashioned lower place.
The tableau of the 6M has a pillar for each of the bell bell keys. They give each bell key abouth the same leverage which is longer or equal to the leverage on the 6M, so they require equal low force for all bell keys.

 

[noelweston]

I see a marketing opportunity here but, as with the MkVI, I fear the countless offset owners would poo-poo something better as a retrograde step.
Let's have inline and of course left hand bell keys too, much easier.
Not sure Selmer would ever concede though?

Some marketing genius/snake oil salesperson should be able to link to the heritage of fine vintage American horns with modern keywork... I get that it's more complex than just something on a rolled tone hole, but a modern twist on Conn/King/Martin should be sellable... The inline keywork doesn't need to be the focus.

I mean, as far as I know the Selmer reference horns are just modern instruments with marketing badges, and people buy them...

We even had a discussion in the workshop last week about the feasibility of chopping a modern horn in the middle, turning the RH key stack tube and adding another collar. If e get a junk tenor at any point that might become a project!

 

[Woodpad]

We even had a discussion in the workshop last week about the feasibility of chopping a modern horn in the middle, turning the RH key stack tube and adding another collar. If e get a junk tenor at any point that might become a project!

Around ten years ago there was a small compagnie in Switzerland who did this chopping experiment with old saxophone bodies and new keywork. I wonder if they stll exist.

Personally I can't see a clear advantage of making this type of offline tone holes saxophones, other than as a unique selling point.

 

[Pete Thomas]

small compagnie in Switzerland who did this chopping experiment with old saxophone bodies and new keywork.

I remember seeing them at the Musikmesse. A couple of Martin Committee with offset RH keys and very special finish. Very nicely done. Dint you have one @rhysonsax ?

 

[noelweston]

I remember seeing them at the Musikmesse. A couple of Martin Committee with offset RH keys and very special finish. Very nicely done. Dint you have one @rhysonsax ?

But... But... That's the wrong way round!
(For us inline fans) 😡

 

[rhysonsax]

I do have one - it started life as a SML Gold Medal tenor and was cut, twisted and shut by Leopold Kondratov. It is lovely with its new keywork and silver plated finish.

I suppose someone could take it (with permission), undo the fixing at the mid-body chop, twist it back and fit different keywork.

Or it would be easier to start with an SML tenor and leave it alone.

Rhys

PS I just looked at my Buffet S1/SDA transitional soprano from 1975. That has inline toneholes, but I found the RH wrist position uncomfortable and got @Stephen Howard to move the tilting RH thumbhook assembly round a bit. I wonder whether the true S1 soprano ever got offset toneholes and whether this one was a sort of halfway house that didn't work ergonomically.

 

[Woodpad]

But... But... That's the wrong way round!
(For us inline fans) 😡

Yes it gives a another meaning to the term reversed engineering.

During a long walk in a nice temperature, caused by storm Bert, some thoughts came up on rebuilding modern offset saxophones to inline saxophones.

The good part is that on modern builds it is easier to turn the bow in the right position. After this turn around there is not much space above the right hand fingers. Julius Keilwerth increased this space by making an inline saxophone combined with selmer like bell keys with a wide bow. I have such a tenor from 1970 and it is a good solution.

The curious thing is that the Julius Keilwerth Peter Ponzol model from 1978 combined a wide bow with offset keys.
It could be that this was a me too thing caused by the popularity of the Yamaha, which copied much from the the Mk6.

I favour the 1970 Keilwerth aproach or do you have a better solution to increase the wiggle room for the right hand keys?

 

[LostCircuits]

In a nutshell, the equivalent of left hand vs. right hand steering. On a bicycle

 

[Woodpad]

In a nutshell, the equivalent of left hand vs. right hand steering. On a bicycle

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84UvVVK7Vdo