Saxophone reviews Keilwerth ST90 - Student model worthy of consideration

[DavidUK]

As this thread has arisen, I had a quick mooch around and found this ST90 which seems identical to a Buffet Evette (key guards, r/h pinky keys & rollers): Alto Saxophone Julius Keilwerth st90 with Case and Mouthpiece | eBay

As Buffet own Keilwerth it seems entirely likely that some Evettes are ST90's. Is this your experience @JayeNM ?

Here's an Evette...

 

[thomsax]

I think the last verison of ST90 was a stencil made by Jupiter or KHS Musical Instruments, Co., Ltd, ROC to be more correct. I think there were 4 versions/phases. Good horns, they use to go for less money. Jupter use to go for less money? I don't understand why?

 

[DavidUK]

Yes, four. Coming back to me now... early ones German, later ones... or is that the EX series...?

Oh... just looked at George's post #1 again... that too is an Evette!

 

[thomsax]

This is what I have heard. I just played version I and IV. Version I was an entirely german made sax. Probably in Nayheim. But after 1990 there were no West- and East-Germany. Version II: tube and parts were made in Germany and shipped to CZ for assembling. Ver III: more work were made in CZ. Ver IV: a KHS stencil, The ST 90 vas a sax with darker tone and more body compared to ST90 ver IV. I thought the JK EX90 was a sax wo JK wide bow. But some CS members convinced me thar they have the wide bow as well. The last EX 90 were also a KHS stencil. I'm not complete sure about his. Might be some new info?

 

[JayeNM]

Right, I will say that as well. The ST90 III and the IV are different horns. I always suspected the IV actually had no JK specs left to it....

I have never seen a 'last EX90'....so cannot comment on that...

 

[JayeNM]

Below is another ST90 I had refurbed....note the spat keys are not the same shape as either the Eveetes nor the ST90 of the auction you posted at the start of this page.

Something else I wanna mention....you will notice in my pic on p.1...the neck is a different finish, it was a used JK neck purchase on eBay by the owner. That is a bona-fide JK neck on that ST90, and it fit without needing any tweaking whatsoever.

This is sorta interesting....more in the reverse than in the forward. The modern Evette Buffet Crampons are ignored, they have no reputation as being decent horns (although I have refurbed 3 of them, 2 altos and a tenor, and quite honestly....give me one of those over a Yama 23 any day) and are even sometimes described as being made in China.
There are KHS details on both the Evettes and the St90's. Wouldn't it be interesting if those Evettes were made at KHS ?

If the Evettes are the same horn as the JK St90 III...then that, IMHO, elevates the Evettes almost, perhaps, as hella sleeper horns.

Dang, now I wanna compare a III, a IV, and an Evette....on the bench....

 

[JayeNM]

Mo'....

 

[DavidUK]

So, George, we have two different ST-90's, the "Tapered Spat" (and roller) type as in post #1, the eBay one, and the Evette above, and then the "Symmetrical Spat" as in your last post.

Do Evettes have both spat types I wonder? Well a quick Google shows mostly tapered but all sorts of kinds of horn - one of the reasons folks steer clear of them as nobody knows what they're buying perhaps?

From you memory, which is better, Tapered or Symmetrical spat type?

What difference in manufacturing do the spat types denote? Country of manufacture? Date range?

Here's link to a previous thread with an Evette with similar symmetrical spat keys but different in other ways: Saxophones - When is a Buffet not a Buffet ?

Oh... and in your opening post you seem to be saying that the "ROC made" one is Chinese whereas ROC is, strangely, not China but Republic of China which is actually Taiwan.
It's PRC which denotes People's republic of China. I believe.

I'm Still none the wiser as to which Evette might be worth looking out for, and despite my penchant for research I don't really think I'll ever get to the end of who made what in this regard...

 

[JayeNM]

I believe you will see later in my comments where I correct myself regarding ROC.....

I dunno, honestly the thread you just provided regarding the Evette Buffet is too dense for me to look at in detail at the moment, although I am glad someone actually did such an in-depth analysis of a horn which gets ignored even MORE than Jupiters get ignored (seemingly impossible, I know...but true, apparently ).
As I had mentioned, when I got my hands ona few modern Evettes, I was surprised at how decent they were.

When I tried to sell them...I guess I was NOT surprised at how un-interested the market is in them. I think I sold an overhauled Tenor for $300, and the altos for around $250...so that was the end of me trying to flip those.

There's an Alto that needs servicing, on eFlay US with an asking price of $175 at the moment. Then another for $229 where the seller accepts offers. And both have been listed for over 2 months. So that about says it all about how these fail to ping anyone's radar....

You have a good eye, I dunno why I let the ST90 spats in my initial post slip by me, they were certainly recognizable as the modern Evette spats and I had done the latter horn prior to the ST90.

TTYTT, if I recognized that the Evettes were ROC when I refurbed them....I had since forgotten; in my skull of fading grey matter I had always considered them Chinese. So thanks for the 'jog'.

No idea which is 'better'...the only way to really tell what is going on is to get an ST90 III or IV, get an Evette, and do a bench comparison. It may well be all they did was change the spat keys and keyguards....and the body, neck, majority of keywork remains exactly the same. Anything simply visual is sorta speculative.

But that they were made by the same plant, at least the ones which we have been discussing here...seems likely. And that the factory is KHS, almost indubitably.
So in and of itself, that's an important piece of info which is not publicized enough.

If I had $800 kicking around (lol, like ever) I might buy one of each and see for myself...but....

 

[DavidUK]

How about the Keilwerth Evette, as here: Evette Alto saxophone by Julius Keilwerth in Stunning Condition | eBay

Now to me this has a certain Buffet 100/400 look to it, forgetting the guards. George, you've had many of the modern Buffets across your bench but what about the Keilwerth Evettes? I'm aware the Buffets are also remarkably "similar" to Hanson's SA5 too.

 

[JayeNM]

It seems to be a 100, actually, at least visually speaking. I have seen these on eFlay sporadically....

 

[DavidUK]

Here's a symmetrical spat Evette, high F#, in great order. Is it KHS? Is it Buffet/Keilwerth?

Note the real pearls. At £200 I just feel like buying it to see if this type is good or rubbish, but then I'd have to but the tapered spat one and the Keilwerth one and I'd be forever looking for other versions...

I'd end up with a load of horns nobody really wants!

 

[DavidUK]

Another lookalike... a Hanson Concerto (prototype) I happened to spot for sale...

Heavily engraved. looking a little Buffet/Keilwerth again. Another one I could easily get stuck with...

 

[peterpick]

there are 2 sorts of EX , one ('exclusiv') is a professional model based on ponzol designs, actually the top of the range whenever it was, the other (EX90) a student model which i had thought was at first made in taiwan and later (i thought) brought back to europe... it's a tangled tale. BUT i have a fully professional EX which much resembles the current SX90.... it's a great sax. i think they descend from the 'toneking special' model.

 

[Woodpad]

There is also the ST 90 series ii. Made by Amati, without wide bow. I have one with serial number 317xxx. The distance between the lowest part of the bell section and the highest part of the ring around the straight part and the bow is 28.5 mm.

 

[JayeNM]

Yes different beasts, those. Nice horns, more akin to a 'real' JK as far as spec/design.

Very few of them ever made it to this side of the Pond, however, while the Jupe-produced ones show up now and again.

 

[Eddy Van Damme]

PS I have just found my copy of an old Keilwerth brochure from early in the period they were owned by Boosey & Hawkes (1989-2003) and when Peter Ponzol was involved - I would guess 1990 or 1991. The brochure says that "Extra wide bow for full sound and easy emission of low notes" was an advantage of "all Julius Keilwerth saxophones" and shows it applying to the EX 90 models.

I can vouch for this. I own both an EX90 and a Yanagisawa 901 tenor. My family are cool with me practicing the Yani all evening even after they have gone to bed. If I try it with the Keilwerth, I get complaints all the time because the projection is massive. I bought the Keilwerth for playing in bars, and boy does it do a good job. It's also built like a Tiger Tank, so yes, it'll take a battering, but it does get a bit heavy after a while. I recommend using a harness if you're going to play it standing up for long periods.

 

[JayeNM]

The EX is a far different horn than the ST's which were either assembled by Amati or made it Taiwan.
EX's were solid horns, I was sad when they were discontinued. It was a good attempt to make a more reasonably priced JK.

 

[Eddy Van Damme]

Thanks for the info Jaye. In fact, the ST I was looking at getting, is no longer an option. The person selling it can't vouch for the mechanical integrity. I asked her if there was any damage or wear, and could you play a full chromatic scale from bottom B flat to top F sharp. She said she didn't know how to play, so I said "thanks vert much then" and left it at that! I'm going to look at some proper second hand tackle next weekend with my band conductor who's a professional saxophonist in the Armed Forces for his day job.

 

[Nick Wyver]

I bought an EX tenor in 1992 after I attended a demo by Peter Ponzol. I still have it but it doesn't get out much these days since I got a Shadow in 2007. Great horns.