Reeds Do pros use hard(er) reeds?

[ghostler]

The Latin American Spaniards have a saying,

"Si no te importa, no importa."
"If you don't mind, it don't matter."

Once one gets over the folklore of "pros use harder reeds" and just choose a hardness one sounds best in, then they are on the way to becoming an accomplished saxist.

When I was doing bell ringing for the Salvation Army on 4 hour shifts, I would play for 2 hours straight, one Christmas Carole after another with maybe a 1 minute break (have a dozen memorized). I would play at least 2 or 3 verses each, then modulate up a half step, then play another 2 or 3.

(On slow nights with fewer shoppers, I play in "harder keys", like Db / C#, etc. Its fun to modulate to that. Play each verse modulating up a half or one step.) 😀

A softer reed like a #2, sometimes a #1.5 would suit me. Then take a 10 minute break, use the restroom, eat a snack, then do another 2 hours.

I did this for 5 days a week. The more relaxed sax embouchure versus clarinet allowed me to do this.

Doing this the reed maybe lasted me a couple weeks before the cane fibres broke down, good now for gardening seedling labels.

I find a slightly harder reed helps on altissimo.

On my early 1950's model 37 Beaugnier Vito Low Bb Bari, hitting altissimo was easy even on #2's and the Graftonite B5. I have a preference for this bari over the tenor.

 

[Dr G]

Do pros use hard(er) reeds? I don't know?

I play rather hard reeds on metal mouthpieces with wide tip opnings. I'm not a pro. My set-up/body is not "built for comfort", then I would do something else instead of honking sax, two hours mountainbike rides and kettlebell workout. I'm grateful and glad that I'm still in psysique good shape and to know what to do to get it back after breaks. The music I like to play is so called "high volume" (loud) sax music. I play hard reeds because I can and I like it.

And that’s alright.

It doesn’t make you any more manly, but if it makes you happy, then enjoy it.

P.S. Real men don’t use octave keys. 😎

 

[PiccoloPirate]

I use LaVoz mediums or similar in other brands.
Alto MPs are Bergs.
HR/95/0
Bronze 100/0.
Vandoren Clarinet V21 3.5s are the hardest reeds, along with Chaucer and Melville.

 

[mrblackbat]

P.S. Real men don’t use octave keys. 😎

Real men use the octave key when playing the bottom register.

 

[progger]

An evergreen topic. And one of the topics that scares people away from instruments like the saxophone or clarinet... honestly, I don't blame them. It took me forever to find my happy place with reeds.

Each of us is a complex system, and we're all different, so each of us ultimately needs to go through the laborious and often agonizingly slow process of figuring out what works individually. After experimenting with various tip openings and reed strengths on all the horns I play (S/A/T, clarinet), I found what I like, comfort-wise, as well as what I prefer when I hear myself recorded. I learned quite a few years ago that I strongly prefer my recorded sound when my reed is quite a bit on the strong side, and I've also learned over time that most of my favorite saxophone sounds are produced by people using hard reeds. Aside from that, I played clarinet first, so hard reeds were familiar and comfortable by the time I started taking saxophones seriously. Regardless, I found that a medium-ish tip opening and firm-ish reeds are most comfortable and give me the sounds I want when I hear a recording of myself. Here's where things have wound up:

Soprano: Vandoren blue box, 3.5 (Selmer Super Session "I" opening)
Alto: Vandoren V16, 3.5 (Selmer Magni-Tone mouthpiece opened to .085, about a Selmer F, by Marantz)
Tenor: Rigotti, 4M (Marantz Florida double-ring, .108, about a Link 7**)
Clarinet: Vandoren V12, 4 (Viotto mouthpiece, copy of Jim Gillespie's Pyne)

FWIW, my "sound idols" on the saxophone have typically been Rick Margitza, Mark Turner, Wayne Shorter, and of course Coltrane, all of whom seem to prefer/have preferred stronger reeds. But I also love Brecker and Kenny Garrett, who (as far as I know) have tended to play reeds on the medium side. It really is a very individual and ultra-variable pile of systems for each of us.

 

[Pete Thomas]

and I've also learned over time that most of my favorite saxophone sounds are produced by people using hard reeds.

How dare you!

No, seriously I have been on quite a journey. When I thought hard reeds were a necessary part of being pro I did work my way up to being able to use 4s and up on alto 8* Lawton. I stuck with that for many years, but then I sort of worked my way up to being able to use 2 or 2.5. I say worked my way up because It was actually harder to play the softer reeds because to do it while having the same sound I wanted (and being able to also do the altissimo I wanted) was not easy.

But the rewards were a more versatile and fluid sound. Among my sound idols were Plas Johnson, Gato Barbieri and Tom Scott. (Did I say "Becker?" not quite). I think those players all used softish reeds.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Of course your are right. You are a pro and I'm a woodshed honker at a rather low level. Never got any money, food, drinks ..... for my sax playing. More or less self-taught. Stubburn as ****. "Biting"? Yes, if "biting" means firm embouchure.

I’m only right because I did say that anything goes, I didn’t say your way was the wrong way to play - merely your comment about working on harder reeds giving gains.

 

[JSL]

As I said, I formed the idea that I needed to go harder to get a jazzy sound.

Not true. If anything, it might be just the opposite. A harder reed might help for playing classical music. Jazz (blues, R&B, R&R) requires more flexibility and is open to a much wider range of tonality than classical.

I also note that two famous players, John Coltrane and Charlie Parker, moved from wide facings and stiff reeds to more flexible setups in their late twenties/early thirties, to gain more expressiveness.

I don't doubt it. Makes sense. I do like wider tips on tenor, but I use 2.5 strong-3 light Rigotti reeds.

 

[Dr G]

Real men use the octave key when playing the bottom register.

That is the corollary exercise suggested by Liebman. The good news is that you learn to blow through any leak - the bad news is that you may learn to ignore leaks until they multiply throughout your horn.

Blowing the entire range without the octave key is great for developing voicing.

 

[wooster]

I remember on a guitar forum some years ago, there was a discussion about string gauge and the usual competitive stuff came out - folks saying SR Vaughan used 13s etc etc - and someone posted this. I thought it was funny and I kept it and here it is:

" Yeah. I use 15s flatwound & preferably old and rusty for extra guitar he-man mojo. I also tune up a minor third to get more KILLA sustain! When i play all my muscles budge and i looks so soulful and authentic with my painful blues old guy geetar face. I can only play one note a night, but you can't beleeb how soulful that one note is. Tone for days! For extra effect i break out a sombrero or poncho or get me some cool facial hair. Sometimes I smoke too and dangle a cigibutt real cool out of my mouth but my wife yells at me when i smoke in the bimmer and ye ol' accounting firm is not so keen on me wearing my poncho at work."

Well, it made me laugh anyway

 

[wooster]

Not true. If anything, it might be just the opposite. A harder reed might help for playing classical music. Jazz (blues, R&B, R&R) requires more flexibility and is open to a much wider range of tonality than classical.

Yes that makes sense to me. I can't remember where I got the original idea but the first time was actually a teaching video or somewhere and it made an impression on me, thought I didn't just hear it once. The message was that you started on soft reeds ard once you were ready you could progress to hard.

 

[Vlad]

I remember on a guitar forum some years ago, there was a discussion about string gauge and the usual competitive stuff came out - folks saying SR Vaughan used 13s etc etc - and someone posted this. I thought it was funny and I kept it and here it is:

" Yeah. I use 15s flatwound & preferably old and rusty for extra guitar he-man mojo. I also tune up a minor third to get more KILLA sustain! When i play all my muscles budge and i looks so soulful and authentic with my painful blues old guy geetar face. I can only play one note a night, but you can't beleeb how soulful that one note is. Tone for days! For extra effect i break out a sombrero or poncho or get me some cool facial hair. Sometimes I smoke too and dangle a cigibutt real cool out of my mouth but my wife yells at me when i smoke in the bimmer and ye ol' accounting firm is not so keen on me wearing my poncho at work."

Well, it made me laugh anyway

Always thought you had the lighted ciggy stuffed behind the low E string on the headstock ( til it burned down and made a scorch mark for extra mojo )

 

[ghostler]

@wooster , I reworded your post:

I remember on a sax forum some years ago, there was a discussion about jazz cut and the usual competitive stuff came out - folks saying Vandurens used 1.5s etc etc - and someone posted this. I thought it was funny and I kept it and here it is:

" Yeah. I use 1.5s jazz cut & preferably aged and rustic for extra sax he-man mojo. I also play up a minor third to get more KILLA altissimo! When i play all my neck muscles budge and i looks so soulful and authentic with my painful blues old guy tenor face.

I can only blow one note a night, but you can't beleeb how soulful that one note is. Tone for days! For extra effect i break out a sombrero or poncho or get me some cool facial hair. Sometimes I smoke too after that tone and dangle a cigibutt real cool out of my mouth but my wife yells at me when i smoke in the bimmer and ye ol' accounting firm is not so keen on me wearing my poncho at work."

Anyway,

 

[wooster]

Always thought you had the lighted ciggy stuffed behind the low E string on the headstock ( til it burned down and made a scorch mark for extra mojo )

I admit that was my preferred technique also. I gave up smoking nearly 30 years ago though, so maybe things have changed

 

[wooster]

@wooster , I reworded your post:

I remember on a sax forum some years ago, there was a discussion about jazz cut and the usual competitive stuff came out - folks saying Vandurens used 1.5s etc etc - and someone posted this. I thought it was funny and I kept it and here it is:

" Yeah. I use 1.5s jazz cut & preferably aged and rustic for extra sax he-man mojo. I also tune up a minor third to get more KILLA altissimo! When i play all my neck muscles budge and i looks so soulful and authentic with my painful blues old guy tenor face.

I can only blow one note a night, but you can't beleeb how soulful that one note is. Tone for days! For extra effect i break out a sombrero or poncho or get me some cool facial hair. Sometimes I smoke too after that tone and dangle a cigibutt real cool out of my mouth but my wife yells at me when i smoke in the bimmer and ye ol' accounting firm is not so keen on me wearing my poncho at work."

Anyway,

I'm most grateful but I need to reaffirm I actually stole it from another forum a while back 😳😛

 

[ghostler]

I'm most grateful but I need to reaffirm I actually stole it from another forum a while back 😳😛

I thought it was OK if you're trying to express more tenor sax mojo especially on that harder reed. 😉

 

[Vlad]

I admit that was my preferred technique also. I gave up smoking nearly 30 years ago though, so maybe things have changed

The older Conn tenors had a brace bar under the neck you could hold a lighted fag in of course 😉

 

[mrblackbat]

That is the corollary exercise suggested by Liebman. The good news is that you learn to blow through any leak - the bad news is that you may learn to ignore leaks until they multiply throughout your horn.

Blowing the entire range without the octave key is great for developing voicing.

I know to both; playing the bottom end with the octave key is just as good for voicing, possibly even better. It’s hard as **** as well.

 

[progger]

How dare you!

And to be clear, Pete, I've always thought your recordings sounded great! 🙂 Regardless of what kind of hardwood you have bolted to that rubber.

 

[turf3]

Always thought you had the lighted ciggy stuffed behind the low E string on the headstock ( til it burned down and made a scorch mark for extra mojo )

Which reminds me of the pianos in the practice rooms in college, all scarred up with both kinds of cigarette marks -

If you laid the ciggy down on the wood, it made an oval burn mark - generally seen at the edge of the lid
If you stood it up on its (nonburning) end, it made a round burn mark when it burned down to the wood.

I suppose the practice rooms were officially non-smoking which is why there weren't any ashtrays.

I do NOT miss the days of all-smoking all-the-time-everywhere. I am a lifelong non smoker.