Beginner theory Is B# the same note as C

[cappers]

I would like to check something please, just want to ensure I'm correct.

I have a piece in E Major so the key sig has F# C# G# D#. The intro is C# B# C# A C# B C# A repeated 2x.

I think B# is enharmonic to C so do I play C natural or C# as in the key sig?

Thank you.

 

[turf3]

Play B#. Yes, it has the same fingering and pitch as C natural, but it's B#. I would guess that the underlying chord is C# major or something similar with 7 sharps. It also might be that a better choice for the copyist would have been to notate that as C natural. It doesn't matter, play B# there.

 

[Pete Thomas]

There's always a judgment call whether you notate with strict enharmonic notes or go with what's easier to read. However B# (or is it C♭ which is equivalent to B♮) is something that really is relevant to harpists. Ask me how I know.

C# B# C# A C# B C#

This is a good case for being enharmonically correct. As C# is in the key sig, if you used C natural you'd have to keep cancelling the ♮ instead of just leaving the C# using the accidental from the key sig. I didn't articulate that well, try it and you'll see what I mean.

 

[mizmar]

FWIW I found it useful to remember, with the more chunky key sigs, there's only one of each note (A B C D E F G) in the scale of the key. If you have a B with a sharp, the note after must still be a C of some flavour.

 

[cappers]

Thanks @turf3 @Pete Thomas @mizmar, as I thought.

Play B#. Yes, it has the same fingering and pitch as C natural, but it's B#. .............

Kind of got the hang of enharmonics and agree that it is best to think correctly, just wanted to confirm I 'play' a C for B#.

Earlier I transposed a piece from G Major to C Major which had F# - Fnat which I changed to B - Bb on the principle that F# has gone down 1/2 step so B should too.

Not sure if I phrased that correctly? what's the interval called between a natural and a #/b, a 1/nth??

 

[skeller047]

Not sure if I phrased that correctly? what's the interval called between a natural and a #/b, a 1/nth??

It’s called a half step (1/2 step). Two half steps make a whole step.

This comes from the fact that we divide the octave into 12 (equal) divisions, but we only have 7 note names. If you think about this from a mathematical/logical standpoint, we will have collisions with other notes. 7 natural notes, and 5 additional notes “between” them.

The five extras each have 2 roles, a flat version of the note above, and a sharp version of the note below. But two spots (B <-> C and E <-> F) don’t have an intermediate extra note, so raising the bottom note (or lowering the top) results in a “natural” note.

There are many reasons we have this system, but study of the history of tuning systems and note systems is both deep and wide, and isn’t really useful to a modern musician unless you want to play music from hundreds of years ago, or are playing in a culture-specific group. Often with culture- or period-specific instruments…

 

[mizmar]

octave into 12 (equal) divisions, but we only have 7 note names.

I'd'v said: 12 (equal) division but 7 notes in a scale - or 5 etc.

... "Why?" Is a whole other discussion

 

[mizmar]

..... Having said which, the basic flavour comes from the choice of those 7 (or 5) notes - choice of Tone Half-tone sequence (that define Major, minor etc)...
... Any Deviation from that is the spice

 

[cappers]

It’s called a half step (1/2 step). Two half steps make a whole step.

Thank you. I did think it was a half-step but wasn't sure of the terminology.
To check I played it on the keyboard (an ancient Casio CTK-1200 but it does the job!) to seee how the various notes sounded.

The five extras each have 2 roles, a flat version of the note above, and a sharp version of the note below. But two spots (B <-> C and E <-> F) don’t have an intermediate extra note, so raising the bottom note (or lowering the top) results in a “natural” note.

As a beginner I've found memorising or at least familiarity with the cycle of 5ths/4ths so helpful in understanding how scales and modes are built, and the movement of semi-tones with those scales and mode, producing the sounds we hear and their 'feel'. Fascinating!

PS

Having had a mentally stimulating career I was getting a bit bored since retiring. Learning music theory and how to play the sax has given me more fun and enjoyment than anything I can think of. My dear suffering wife says she has not seen me so enthusiastic and committed about something in all our nearly 47 years together, and she's enjoying me playing. Win-win!

 

[skeller047]

Having had a mentally stimulating career I was getting a bit bored since retiring. Learning music theory and how to play the sax has given me more fun and enjoyment than anything I can think of. My dear suffering wife says she has not seen me so enthusiastic and committed about something in all our nearly 47 years together, and she's enjoying me playing. Win-win!

You’ve got a good wife! A wife that loves you and loves music is a joy forever.

Since you like mental stimulation, it’s not too soon to consider how many different factors the number 12 has. This can lead to some interesting musical ideas. But concentrate on the major scale for a while 🙂

 

[cappers]

You’ve got a good wife! A wife that loves you and loves music is a joy forever.

Yes, I'm a lucky man.

Since you like mental stimulation, it’s not too soon to consider how many different factors the number 12 has. This can lead to some interesting musical ideas. But concentrate on the major scale for a while 🙂

Not sure if I've got this but the factorial of 12 = 479,001,600, which is a lot of permutations!

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Bring home a Sopranino or Piccolo, for a true test of love. 🎶❤️🎶

 

[cappers]

Bring home a Sopranino or Piccolo, for a true test of love. 🎶❤️🎶

I've got a dog whistle........

 

[Targa]

Yes, I'm a lucky man.

Not sure if I've got this but the factorial of 12 = 479,001,600, which is a lot of permutations!

If I remember O level maths from 60 years ago:
12! - factorial- is the product of the integers
The factors of 12 are 1,2,3,4,6,12
Combination is n!/(n-r)!
Permutation is (n!/(n-r)!)r!
Or something like that, @BigMartin?

 

[cappers]

If I remember O level maths from 60 years ago:
12! - factorial- is the product of the integers
The factors of 12 are 1,2,3,4,6,12
Combination is n!/(n-r)!
Permutation is (n!/(n-r)!)r!
Or something like that, @BigMartin?

Got me there!

IIRC when the order doesn't matter, it is a combination i.e. n!/(n-r)!

n = the set or population,
r = subset of n or sample set

12 notes (7 plus 5 # & b) so c = 12!/(12- ?)! = ? what's r in this case?

 

[Pete Effamy]

I've got a dog whistle........

Same thing

 

[Targa]

Got me there!

IIRC when the order doesn't matter, it is a combination i.e. n!/(n-r)!

n = the set or population,
r = subset of n or sample set

12 notes (7 plus 5 # & b) so c = 12!/(12- ?)! = ? what's r in this case?

That would probably depend on why skeller047 mentioned it in the first place.
By the way when a big man sitting in a pub is sucking on the end of his pencil and says he's working out his footie pools perm do not on any account come over all pedantic about it's actually a combination.

 

[mizmar]

what's r in this case?

n!/(n-r)! Only applies when you have a fixed set of n objects out of which you chose r and each choice is removed from the set.
But you can repeated notes as much as you like. And there are pauses, and notes (or pauses) of different lengths... So that's an exponential ... Of, let's say, (13x6)^r or so.
But then it gets complicated because, first, are you choosing r notes or filling r beats or bars of music? Because choosing C eighth note twice is the same as C quarter once ... Or can you chose, also, articulation?

 

[Pete Effamy]

What was the topic again?

 

[mizmar]

What was the topic again?

E! Major.