Reeds Do pros use hard(er) reeds?

[Pete Thomas]

I genuinely didn't know some pros used Rico 2.5 reeds.

I’ve been pro all my life and use 2.5 Rico and 2 or 2.25 Legere. Why would a pro not use Rico 2.5?

I used to use Rico 4 but progressed down to 2.5

 

[wooster]

I’ve been pro all my life and use 2.5 Rico and 2 or 2.25 Legere. Why would a pro not use Rico 2.5?

I used to use Rico 4 but progressed down to 2.5

Thank you for this. As I said, I formed the idea that I needed to go harder to get a jazzy sound. Knowing this isn't the case is actually quite a relief. I should know better at my time of life, but it appears that I'm not immune to internet babble. 😳

 

[Pete Thomas]

Thank you for this. As I said, I formed the idea that I needed to go harder to get a jazzy sound.

I can't believe some of the misinformation out there! Maybe I should start a new thread on that myth.

 

[wooster]

I can't believe some of the misinformation out there! Maybe I should start a new thread on that myth.

It probably would help a lot of people starting out. It seems to me that there's a bit of a competitive thing about it sometimes. You get the same thing with guitar string gauge I suppose

 

[Digger2054]

It probably would help a lot of people starting out. It seems to me that there's a bit of a competitive thing about it sometimes. You get the same thing with guitar string gauge I suppose

There is a misconception that somehow a harder reed means you're somewhat better.

I too play on 2-2.5's on all my horns. My teacher does too who has a killer sound, he can also really tone it down. Embouchure & voicing seems to make a bigger impact.

Away from the horn, there's other things you can practice that will be beneficial. Sing some rhythms/tunes to a metronome, concentrating on getting emphasis on the strong beats and get your timing/rhythm on point - This coming from me who really should be doing that myself more often.

 

[mizmar]

I can't believe some of the misinformation out there!

Some? No misinformation should be believed!

 

[Dr G]

Some? No misinformation should be believed!

Some is better than others.

 

[Dr G]

FWIW, Ron Coelho used to comment that he designed his mouthpieces to work best with a 2 1/2 reed. If you look at the Francois Louis website, you’ll notice that reed recommendations are all over the maps because he varies the facing for various tip openings.

A very common tip opening for jazz players (tenor) is 7*, according to Phil Barone. I have been playing tenor for 50+ years, and still hover ‘round tip openings of .105-.110 with reeds somewhere ‘round 2.5-3.0. I use a slightly stiffer reed on my classical mouthpiece, a Morgan 6C (0.090).

That whole “competition” thing is among high schoolers. After that, people will be listening to your sound and really not caring what reed you are sporting.

And yes, some players like more resistance, others prefer a sense of “free blowing”. Reed stiffness can play a part in that - resistance is also a function of the mouthpiece design and whether your horn has leaks.

 

[turf3]

...as a beginner approaching 70, I have also read that many players start to reduce mouthpiece strength at that age...

As definitely not a beginner I was finished with the bigger-facing, stiffer-reed macho business at about age 35.

I also note that two famous players, John Coltrane and Charlie Parker, moved from wide facings and stiff reeds to more flexible setups in their late twenties/early thirties, to gain more expressiveness.

 

[Jimmymack]

I play a 2.5s having also progressed from La Voz hard many years ago. I tend to wear out 2s but 2.5 is my ideal. There are quite a few ‘travel’ sax type things if you want to work on the fingering and melody stuff but they probably won’t be much help with your embouchure. They vary quite a lot in terms of size and price. Sax.co.uk have a fair range.

 

[LostCircuits]

Too many variables... elevation plays a big role, facing cureve length, baffle height and what not. Ron Coelho often understated the tip opening because he was afraid folks would shy away from a 0.115" MPC so he labeled them as 110 and so on.

My personal preference is 0.115 - 0.117 with a #3 reed but it also depends on the specific horn. Large bore plays different from small bore. Leaky horns ...

 

[dexdex]

As a matter of fact, aren’t most professionals, including big names on the jazz scene since roughly the 50s mostly playing into microphones ? On stage or in studios. Speaking of the jazz and pop/rock players.
Which means you can shape your sound with the tip opening and reed brand and strength best fitting your project.
It took me quite some time to realize that the rich tone of Paul Desmond or Stanley Turrentine was achievable by many of us at reasonable volume. At home, or into a microphone.
But not at the local jam-session with a drummer banging like hell. Or in that band knowing only ff and fff.
Bono doesn’t sound like Placido Domingo.
Pros don’t need steroid setups, they need the one that fits their sound project.
I remember my surprise hearing Joe Henderson live. He almost whispered on his horn. But sounded big and bold on his albums. The Rudy Van Gelder magic.

 

[turf3]

Sometimes speaking softly is more effective than shouting.

I tell the story of one jam session I was at, playing sax, where there was a long line of sax players, each one taking many choruses, fast and faster, loud and louder. Great players, but as someone once put it "they weren't telling no kind of story".

I was beckoned to, stepped up on stage, motioned "SHHHHHHH" to the rhythm section, played ONE chorus, mezzo piano, and stepped aside. That was the most applause anyone got all night.

 

[Nick Wyver]

Sop jazz select 3s
Alto rico 2.5
Tenor jazz select 2m
Bari jazz select 2s

I like to be able to play quietly and cleanly and well as stupidly loud.

 

[skeller047]

Chad LB plays a Nexus 2.5 (probably equivalent to a Rico 3, or maybe a little softer), on a Nexus tenor mouthpiece, which is an 8 opening. Huge sound.

Plas Johnson (he of Pink Panther fame) plays a 1.5 reed on a 10 or 11 tip opening. HUGE sound.

Myself, I play a Rico 3.5 on a 6* Link (tenor) or a BSS 3. Same reeds on a 7* Tribute. I play Select Jazz 3S or BSS 3 on a size 6 alto piece. Note that I also sand every reed down a bit as part of the adjusting process. I’m a big guy with strong lungs. But I’m also getting older and I’ve been thinking about reducing my setup resistance. The last 4 hour gig I played (night club, standing, 3 sets with a quartet, no mic) I was exhausted at the end, though to be fair it might have been the standing part that got to me.

I think the point is to play what actually works. Can you play pp < ff > pp with ease? If so, don’t give it another thought. If not, consider changing reed strength.

 

[ghostler]

I use #2 reeds on a Rico Graftonite B5 mouthpiece for my bar's.
I use #2.5 reeds on a Rico Graftonite B5 mouthpiece for my sop.
The B5's have a moderately wide tip opening, good for my jazz.

Alto, #2.5 reeds on a Selmer S90-190 mouthpiece.

Given the high cost of reeds these days, if someone is selling softer reeds for a bargain, I will purchase these and adjust as needed to suit me.

I knew some clarinet players that used the harder 3.0+ - 4.0 reeds, but it was to suit the cut of their mouthpieces and embouchure.

Not playing clarinet as much these days, so it's 2.5 reeds. (Been acquiring additional clarinets for donation to the community band. Good used ones can be had for a bargain price.)

Just acquired a Graftonite B5 for clarinet, so reed strength could change.

 

[thomsax]

Do pros use hard(er) reeds? I don't know?

I play rather hard reeds on metal mouthpieces with wide tip opnings. I'm not a pro. My set-up/body is not "built for comfort", then I would do something else instead of honking sax, two hours mountainbike rides and kettlebell workout. I'm grateful and glad that I'm still in psysique good shape and to know what to do to get it back after breaks. The music I like to play is so called "high volume" (loud) sax music. I play hard reeds because I can and I like it. I don't want a jazzy tone/sound.

Before amplification (PA) hard reeds and wide tip openings was on of the tools for a saxplayer to cut through in a noisy environment. Pro saxplayers back then played a lot live. And when you do it often, you usally get better. Some good honkers didn't reached the recording studios.

As definitely not a beginner I was finished with the bigger-facing, stiffer-reed macho business at about age 35.

I also note that two famous players, John Coltrane and Charlie Parker, moved from wide facings and stiff reeds to more flexible setups in their late twenties/early thirties, to gain more expressiveness.

I'm 70 and I play #4 or H reeds on a tenor mouthpiece with .130" tip opening. Maybe Parker and Coltrane were not able to hold on to their ordinay set-up? I'm a naive/simple country boy/man, that like to blow sax in the same style as my heros from the past. Never been close to drugs .... maybe I shall sit on the dock? My chrime; too hard reeds and too wide tip openings and trying to play like Curtis, Prysock, Clemons ..... . 😉

 

[thomsax]

Plas Johnson (he of Pink Panther fame) plays a 1.5 reed on a 10 or 11 tip opening. HUGE sound.

Plas Johnson was playing 2-2½ "plasti-coat" baritone reeds on a Berg Larsen #10 (.130") metal mouthpiece back in 2005.

 

[Pete Effamy]

And when you do it often, you usally get better.

This is pure opinion only.

The truth is that people settle on what works best for them in any situation(s). Pro players find themselves in many musical situations and have to be prepared for any eventuality - that means having complete control of the horn at all dynamics across the whole compass. And being able to play with nuance and manipulate / vary tone colours.

This has all been said by others. In the main, players can only achieve this with a setup that is allowing of this - and “hard” reeds will not give this up easily.

Harder reeds will lead to biting - you have to deflect the reed somewhat in order to make the reed vibrate, and the stiffer the reed etc etc. this can cause an indentation of your teeth on your bottom lip. Bruising follows and it’s not so nice playing after that.

Eddie Daniels has said that he realised that he could play longer when in the studio recording The Five Seasons if he moved to a softer reed that he didn’t have to bite so much. He said that he could only last about 20 minutes and he’d have to have time out, and the string quartet would be just hanging around waiting for him.

So. Down to your physiology of your jaw / facial muscles / lung capacity possibly, but most players will find that an easy-blowing option is the best option.

I play on 2.5 reeds roughly across the board. I like a fairly open mouthpiece on sax but can’t handle wide.

Soprano - I treat more like a clarinet. I don’t need absolute volume from it, I want a round sound and control.

Clarinet - D’Addario Reserve Classic 2.5 / ED mouthpiece
Soprano - La Voz Medium / Selmer S80 C*
Alto - 2.5 Hemke / Lakey 4*3 in big band / Jody Jazz DV 8
Tenor - Legere American Cut 2.5 / Jody Jazz 7*

 

[thomsax]

This is pure opinion only.

The truth is that people settle on what works best for them in any situation(s). Pro players find themselves in many musical situations and have to be prepared for any eventuality - that means having complete control of the horn at all dynamics across the whole compass. And being able to play with nuance and manipulate / vary tone colours.

This has all been said by others. In the main, players can only achieve this with a setup that is allowing of this - and “hard” reeds will not give this up easily.

Harder reeds will lead to biting - you have to deflect the reed somewhat in order to make the reed vibrate, and the stiffer the reed etc etc. this can cause an indentation of your teeth on your bottom lip. Bruising follows and it’s not so nice playing after that.

Eddie Daniels has said that he realised that he could play longer when in the studio recording The Five Seasons if he moved to a softer reed that he didn’t have to bite so much. He said that he could only last about 20 minutes and he’d have to have time out, and the string quartet would be just hanging around waiting for him.

So. Down to your physiology of your jaw / facial muscles / lung capacity possibly, but most players will find that an easy-blowing option is the best option.

I play on 2.5 reeds roughly across the board. I like a fairly open mouthpiece on sax but can’t handle wide.

Soprano - I treat more like a clarinet. I don’t need absolute volume from it, I want a round sound and control.

Clarinet - D’Addario Reserve Classic 2.5 / ED mouthpiece
Soprano - La Voz Medium / Selmer S80 C*
Alto - 2.5 Hemke / Lakey 4*3 in big band / Jody Jazz DV 8
Tenor - Legere American Cut 2.5 / Jody Jazz 7*

Of course your are right. You are a pro and I'm a woodshed honker at a rather low level. Never got any money, food, drinks ..... for my sax playing. More or less self-taught. Stubburn as ****. "Biting"? Yes, if "biting" means firm embouchure.