Saxophone beginners Changing to harder reed

[Rob Pealing]

................. Any suggestions for good beginners tunes other than ' Over the hills and far away'?

If you like jazz try the ABRM jazz grade 1 tunes. ( ABRSM-Jazz-Alto-Sax-Level-Grade-1-Tunes-Part-Score-CD/720364) There is a good variety of tuneswith different rhythms.

 

[jbtsax]

The problem with this kind of prescriptive approach is that although it may work for some people who need to do something very regimented, very often playing the saxophone is not like that and what works best for a lot of people is finding what works for them.

It may or may not take a little longer but I find it a more creative approach than saying what mouthpiece pitch you should get (I get something totally different to the prescribed pitch) or where to put their lips by placing a piece of card under the reed and drawing a pencil line.

I have found that taking in too much mouthpiece can be way more of a problem taking in too little. Over the years I have found what works best for me most of the time is to play right at the tip. It does not cause the read to bend too much or the sound to get stuffy but it does allow a lot more control over the reed and so flexibility of tone and pitch. Although a lot might depend on the curve of the facing.

Maybe it is soft reeds in general that may bend more, but that is partly to do with embouchure control and possibly I think the nature of softer reeds, maybe we just accept they don't last as long as harder reeds but that is small price to pay for the advantages.

We have discussed this topic before. In my thinking putting the top teeth directly above where the reed and mouthpiece begin to separate puts the lower lip (assuming it is a "lip over" embouchure) in the position which allows the maximum amount of reed to vibrate freely while allowing enough "dampening" from the lower lip to control the sound. Generally speaking when my students did not take enough mouthpiece into the mouth, the resulting tone was pinched and stuffy. On the other hand putting the top teeth too far onto the mouthpiece produced a harsh, raspy tone.

In any case, the instructions given by Bruce Pearson do reflect the standard "classical pedagogy" of teaching saxophone tone production and provide the student who has little or no experience a good place to start in my experience. It should be noted that my 32 year teaching career was for the most part teaching saxophone students the style appropriate to playing in concert bands and "classical" solo material. I acknowledge that training students to "find their own sound" for jazz or rock styles of playing may require a different approach.

 

[saxyjt]

Beware you experienced players, that your feelings are tainted by years of experience that US poor beginners don't have and therefore we cannot truly appreciate what's right and what's wrong.

If I dare another comparison with golf, there are mainly 3 different grips used by golf players. The Overlap, the Interlock and the Baseball grips. I've met an exceptional player in Tahiti that used the Baseball grip that is usually strongly disapproved of. This player was unusual in many ways as he played bare feeted and bare handed, wearing nothing but a short! A native of the grounds of the only golf course in French Polynesia at the time. Jack Nicklaus, one of the best players ever used the Interlocking grip that's not the most common and I read many times that it is better suited to small hands. I chose it after experimenting the other two and I don't have particularly small hands.

Nevertheless, I still think that students should be tought the 'Standard' grip/embouchure to begin with. If they don't feel happy, comfortable after a while, then they should try something else. But encouraging beginners to do unconventional things is not helping them IMHO.

 

[ESJohn]

I'm more or less a beginner. My experience (which is limited) began with a 2 1/2. I was getting so many squeaks that I switched to using 2's. Then I found that it required more effort for me doing so and I went back to the 2 1/2 which for some reason gave me more control. I then went all in with a 3 (which, when I first began, yielded no sound at all just as you mentioned) and was actually playing sort of ok, except the notes were somewhat airy. I even tried a fabric ligature with the 3 reed and managed to get some notes from it. All this after following the great suggestions offered here (such as adjusting the ligature and reed) which was a tremendous help. This evening's practice was with a 3 and the control was even better and notes came out clearer. The advice here has been fantastic. Find what works best for you. I also like experimenting, for a short amount of my practice time, with something different just to see what might happen. You can always go back to what you use most of the time.

 

[Fortyniner]

Hi, I've been trying the lower lip over the teeth embouchure for about a week now and am getting used to it. I don't know if it has cured the biting problem or not. Do you think it's better to use 2 or 3 reeds during a practice session and give them a rest rather than just play on one reed? I ask this because they seem to get softer the longer I play until they won't drop to the lower octave after playing a note in the higher octave even though i have taken my thumb off the octave key.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Hi, I've been trying the lower lip over the teeth embouchure for about a week now and am getting used to it. I don't know if it has cured the biting problem or not. Do you think it's better to use 2 or 3 reeds during a practice session and give them a rest rather than just play on one reed? I ask this because they seem to get softer the longer I play until they won't drop to the lower octave after playing a note in the higher octave even though i have taken my thumb off the octave key.

It's kind of hard for us to know for sure what the problem is as we aren't there to check how you're playing and using your embouchure. Generally it's easier to hit low notes with a softer reed and the highs with a harder reed. Not being able to drop to the lower octave makes me think you're still "biting" and closing off the reed too much. Could also be that the octave pip isn't closing properly, but more likely that you're using too much jaw pressure. Many instructors give explicit instructions on dropping your jaw to hit the very low notes (low C to Bb). This is almost always done in order to "sub-tone" along with opening the throat. You might try an exercise where you play from low D to 2nd D back and forth just using the octave key and keep doing this until you can feel the change in your embouchure that makes it possible to hit both notes. When you've got it try the rest of the notes up to C#.

Playing sax requires adjustments in embouchure, air flow, oral cavity, jaw, etc. besides just blowing and hitting keys. The reed and the horn are facilitators, the rest has to come from you. Get used to the idea of YOU adjusting to make the sound. It's generally not the stiffness of the reed that needs adjusting. A practiced player can play a reed that's too soft, but it won't be optimal. You probably aren't at the stage where optimal is a consideration. I'd recommend two things: don't use a reed stiffer than #2 as it will encourage you to bite (use your jaw), and get yourself a good teacher.

 

[Fortyniner]

Hi, I'm sticking to cane reeds for the time being. I've got a couple each of the 4 Vandoren jazz reeds to try them out. The Java red seems the easiest to play. I found a couple of good videos on youtube about the embouchure. I saw a post which suggested soaking reeds in Vodka instead of water so I'm trying this. I've got some Almond flavour vodka which I'm trying. They certainly taste better!

 

[Wade Cornell]

Hi, I'm sticking to cane reeds for the time being. I've got a couple each of the 4 Vandoren jazz reeds to try them out. The Java red seems the easiest to play. I found a couple of good videos on youtube about the embouchure. I saw a post which suggested soaking reeds in Vodka instead of water so I'm trying this. I've got some Almond flavour vodka which I'm trying. They certainly taste better!

I honestly don't know why you bother to ask experienced players/teachers for their opinion when you pay no attention. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I honestly don't know why you bother to ask experienced players/teachers for their opinion when you pay no attention. Welcome to my ignore list.

It's OK, people can ask advice, and they can choose to follow it or not. I wouldn't berate them for asking though even if they do choose to ignore. It's just human nature, I do it myself sometimes.

 

[Fortyniner]

I have paid attention and searched for teachers near where i live but have not found anyone. The next best thing is to watch videos on the embouchure from recognised sources such as the London School of Music and Ed Baker which I have done. As a result I have changed to your suggestion on lip over the teeth embouchure and that is helping. Someone else suggested i try the different vandoren jazz reeds so I watched the video about them and got some.. I haven't adopted the synthetic reed suggestion because there is no general consensus on that and they cost about £30 here. I can try a lot of cane reeds for that. My experience with bagpipe reeds over 30 years does not support the idea that there is any substitute for cane.

 

[nigeld]

Hi, I'm sticking to cane reeds for the time being. I've got a couple each of the 4 Vandoren jazz reeds to try them out. The Java red seems the easiest to play. I found a couple of good videos on youtube about the embouchure. I saw a post which suggested soaking reeds in Vodka instead of water so I'm trying this. I've got some Almond flavour vodka which I'm trying. They certainly taste better!

In my opinion, it makes a lot of sense to stick to cane reeds if you want to experiment with reed types and strengths.
My teacher uses a plastic reed on one of his saxes, but not the others, and he has never told me to use one.

By "the 4 Vandoren jazz reeds" I assume you mean four different types of Vandoren jazz reed, rather than reeds of strength 4, which would probably be too hard.

I used to soak my bassoon reeds in vodka, following the advice of a professional. It meant that the reeds were instantly ready to play, and tasted nice, and they seemed to last a bit longer, but they went a funny looking colour after a while, so I stopped.

 

[Fortyniner]

Hi Nigeld, I did mean the 4 different types of jazz reeds, they are all strength 2. I thought i would compare them after watching the video by Sax Co uK. I had a strength 2 Java Red and a 2 V16 and I got on better with both than with the ordinary Vandoren or Rico Orange reeds.

 

[JazzMatt]

Hi Nigeld, I did mean the 4 different types of jazz reeds, they are all strength 2. I thought i would compare them after watching the video by Sax Co uK. I had a strength 2 Java Red and a 2 V16 and I got on better with both than with the ordinary Vandoren or Rico Orange reeds.

Not all Strength 2 reeds are strength 2.

Vandoren Blue box are abar the stiffest reeds out their. V16 are fairly stiff too. ZZ and Java Red are the softest, more like a 1.75 strength. Then Java Green. IIRC.

 

[Fortyniner]

Hi Jazz Mat, that's interesting because it says on the video that all the reeds of the same type are made exactly the same on the same machine so they are dimensionally identical. They are then graded for strength afterwards.. There must be bands of tolerance in the grading so it could be there would be hardly any difference between say a 2 and a 2.5. I can't imagine they throw away the in-between ones.

 

[Halfers]

Hi Jazz Mat, that's interesting because it says on the video that all the reeds of the same type are made exactly the same on the same machine so they are dimensionally identical. They are then graded for strength afterwards.. There must be bands of tolerance in the grading so it could be there would be hardly any difference between say a 2 and a 2.5. I can't imagine they throw away the in-between ones.

Have a google on "Saxophone reed strength chart". Lots of info on comparisons of different reed brands and makes against their strength rating.

 

[JazzMatt]

 

[Fortyniner]

Thank you. I've looked up the charts and they differ slightly. The one above from Jazz Matt indicates a V16 would be the same as a vandoren blue no 2. I can play one of those alright but can't get anything out of the V16 2.5. I bought a box of them thinking I would be onto them soon and wish i'd bought the 2's instead. The Java and ZZ's are good though.

 

[Halfers]

Thank you. I've looked up the charts and they differ slightly. The one above from Jazz Matt indicates a V16 would be the same as a vandoren blue no 2. I can play one of those alright but can't get anything out of the V16 2.5. I bought a box of them thinking I would be onto them soon and wish i'd bought the 2's instead. The Java and ZZ's are good though.

It's not an exact science so you do have to go by what is working for you at the moment. At least you can keep hold of the V16's and I'm sure they will come in handy at some point. I spent an absolute fortune playing around with different reeds when I got started, so can appreciate the position,

 

[Wade Cornell]

I may have misinterpreted what was said in Fortynier's post above. I read this as he's trying to play #4 reeds. My mistake if that's the case.

 

[Jeanette]

Hi Nigeld, I did mean the 4 different types of jazz reeds, they are all strength 2. I thought i would compare them after watching the video by Sax Co uK. I had a strength 2 Java Red and a 2 V16 and I got on better with both than with the ordinary Vandoren or Rico Orange reeds.

I may have misinterpreted what was said in Fortynier's post above. I read this as he's trying to play #4 reeds. My mistake if that's the case.

It would appear so @Wade Cornell 🙂

Jx