Tech/maintenance C#2 Very Flat

[LostCircuits]

What I said is correct, if you open the palm keys too far, the upper (palm) notes will be sharp and therefore C# will be flat. relative to those, And then you need to adjust the rest of the stack but the relative pitch between C# and the palm keys is the correct starting point.

I mean, you can also start with bringing C down by lowering the upper key but I prefer doing things in a "straight line" instead of a zig zag gauntlet when it comes to tuning.

Work more on sopranos and you'll learn quickly. 😀

 

[LostCircuits]

The keys that are typically shut on all 3 standard octaves of C# are over venting from the closed position? Unless you mean that the rest of their scale is blowing very sharp, which makes the C# relatively flat. But if that were the case, the rest of the horn would be flat and the outliers would be the sharp palm keys.

I'm thinking that it's more likely that something in the main stack (probably the upper stack) isn't venting enough, but that's just a guess.

That's the poodle's core!

The same principle applies as with a piano, you can only tune an instrument that's in tune and the easiest starting point is to bring the palm keys in tune with C#.

And it is a rinse and repeat procedure, on my last soprano I had to do it 3 times top to bottom to get it dialed in. And there is no reason to believe that altos are fundamentally different.

All the tone holes depend on each other. Play palm D and close RH3 -2 and you see how the pitch changes, even on a tenor.

So, start with the easy ones and then adjust the rest, otherwise you'll end up with random pitch all over the place.

 

[PigSquealer]

What I said is correct, if you open the palm keys too far, the upper (palm) notes will be sharp and therefore C# will be flat. relative to those, And then you need to adjust the rest of the stack but the relative pitch between C# and the palm keys is the correct starting point.

I mean, you can also start with bringing C down by lowering the upper key but I prefer doing things in a "straight line" instead of a zig zag gauntlet when it comes to tuning.

Work more on sopranos and you'll learn quickly. 😀

I’m really trying to get my head around this.

 

[PigSquealer]

I saw that, too! I did try their alternative fingering but it sounded even worse.

Clearly I need a new alto.

Ok, I just asked (8pm on Saturday night) a customer of mine. He’s the US West Coast sales manager for JK.
His reply. “How does c#2 compare to 3? and what mouthpiece ? .

 

[LostCircuits]

I’m really trying to get my head around this.

Ok, when you set up a carb, do you start with the mix or the idle?

Or, when you have two light bulbs, one is brighter, is the other one darker? One you can adjust, the other one you can't, which one do you work on?




Obviously, the c# is hard to adjust, you can a bit by adjusting the upper stack but it is limited, once you hit the fully vented opening, you can increase the height as much as you want and it'll be empty adjustment - no real effect there if it is flat-relative to the other notes.

So, take it to that point, where you get a good, not muffled tone, which includes next few keys and then use that as a reference to adjust the palm keys so that you have "a solid foundation" of a few notes that are in tune with each other (your carb idle) and use that as reference to adjust the rest of the keys going top to bottom (mix).

Like I mentioned, there will always be some effect of any lower keys on the upper keys but it is an iterative process and the starting point is c# vs palm keys. Once you go further down the stack you use the 2nd harmonics of the lower notes to match the first harmonics of the higher notes.

It's almost like tuning a guitar, you use a SNARK guitar tuner or flageolet notes to match the strings and the quality of the tuning is worlds apart, as is the tone of the instrument.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Ok, I just asked (8pm on Saturday night) a customer of mine. He’s the US West Coast sales manager for JK.

His reply. “How does c#2 compare to 3? and what mouthpiece ? .

Every other note is basically fine. No extreme set-up, either - a Vandoren V16 with red Javas.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Try playing tunes on just the mouthpiece to flex your embouchure muscles, oral cavity and airstream.

Alto isn't a small tenor. Tighter embouchure. Different oral cavity.

Perhaps a little practice on clarinet would help.

 

[Veggie Dave]

Alto isn't a small tenor. Tighter embouchure. Different oral cavity.

If it was more than one note I'd be thinking this, too.

Perhaps a little practice on clarinet would help.

The only note I can't blast out on clarinet is high/top F, but I haven't worked on the note, either, as I've haven't needed it up to now.

 

[LostCircuits]

Stop beating your head against the wall and get that alto tuned up.

So here is a "funny" episode. Saxello plays reasonably well in tune after a few passes of adjusting. But, every time I went to an acoustic jam, my low and middle D and below are flat, and I mean really flat.

This is a very soft volume event, I am playing between p and pp.

At home I can't replicate it, I play with a tuner and everything is just fine, it only happens at that venue/event

Eventually I found that the spring opening the D key was mangled, Really bad repair by one of the previous owners / techs and it is not in the original hole but at a slight angle and hasn't been flattened at the fat end so it rotates. To the point where the key opened but only 3/4 of the way. Whenever I play at home or anywhere with enough air, the air stream is enough to open the key all the way and the flat notes go away, Only at p or pp, there is not enough static pressure to augment the weak spring and the notes drop like a rock into flatland.

This is just an example of what can happen or will happen if anything is out of regulation.

 

[PigSquealer]

Ok, when you set up a carb, do you start with the mix or the idle?

Or, when you have two light bulbs, one is brighter, is the other one darker? One you can adjust, the other one you can't, which one do you work on?




Obviously, the c# is hard to adjust, you can a bit by adjusting the upper stack but it is limited, once you hit the fully vented opening, you can increase the height as much as you want and it'll be empty adjustment - no real effect there if it is flat-relative to the other notes.

So, take it to that point, where you get a good, not muffled tone, which includes next few keys and then use that as a reference to adjust the palm keys so that you have "a solid foundation" of a few notes that are in tune with each other (your carb idle) and use that as reference to adjust the rest of the keys going top to bottom (mix).

Like I mentioned, there will always be some effect of any lower keys on the upper keys but it is an iterative process and the starting point is c# vs palm keys. Once you go further down the stack you use the 2nd harmonics of the lower notes to match the first harmonics of the higher notes.

It's almost like tuning a guitar, you use a SNARK guitar tuner or flageolet notes to match the strings and the quality of the tuning is worlds apart, as is the tone of the instrument.

Nice ! Thanks for taking the time to explain the tuning technique. This makes sense. You’re also not playing the palm keys for note C#2. You’re using the palms to establish the venting / tuning of C#2. @rhysonsax & I both thought you were opening all the LH palms to play C#2 🤪.
Nice to know you’re not licking any frogs🤣

 

[LostCircuits]

Nice to know you’re not licking any frogs🤣

Like George Hamilton said: Enema!

 

[Colin the Bear]

So what are we saying? Flatten the palm notes and push in? 🤔

 

[LostCircuits]

So what are we saying? Flatten the palm notes and push in? 🤔

And adjust the rest of the keys to be in tune.
The entire horn sounds like everything is open to the max, sort of in tune with itself but off center (C#)

 

[turf3]

I have seen quite a few instances where the palm keys are way too high. I think people make the openings visually the same as those of the stack keys; but it ought to be the PROPORTION that's the same. If you take your palm keys and adjust them to the proportional opening is the same as the stack keys, you will often see a big difference. Really, on my sopranos, the palm keys end up with hardly any travel at all when set this way.

Another thing that leads people to this kind of adjustment is using a small chamber MP on a horn that it's not well matched to. They pull way out, and all the short tube notes are flat and all the long tube notes are sharp when the horn is "average in tune". Then the tech raises palm keys to the moon; but you can't raise all-open C# any more than the rest of the stack keys.

Basically, the all-open C#s have a "wide octave" on I think pretty much every saxophone. Makers and technicians adjusting them have to choose where to put the error - do you make the lower one flat, or the upper one sharp? Back in the 20s and 30s the choice was to make the upper C# sharp, since you can either lip down or put some RH keys down like flutists often do for their all-open C# and clarinetists do for throat tones. Selmer with the Mark 6 appear to have decided to move some of the error to the lower C#, making it flat (which is VERY difficult to correct for), and if you're pulled way out, it'll make it even worse. I far prefer the C# correction lever as seen on most old sopranos and a few old altos, where engaging the octave key partially closes the topmost pad on the stack.

I still maintain that setting the horn up the way it was designed, not opening pads way up for some purported tonal change, and playing it with a mouthpiece that doesn't deviate too far from the kind it was designed for, will almost always get you excellent intonation on pretty much any saxophone built after say 1920 or so. Tone holes are located with fixtures in the factory, they don't just get randomly placed wherever Joe or Steve (or Francois or Helmut) wants to put them.

 

[turf3]

And adjust the rest of the keys to be in tune.
The entire horn sounds like everything is open to the max, sort of in tune with itself but off center (C#)

Yep, that's my long distance diagnosis - the pads are open to the moon, in search of "open tone" or whatever, so the whole thing is playing sharp, so you pull way out, and then the short tube notes are relatively flatter. Combine that with (Probably) a design decision at the factory to put some of the error of the wide C# octave on the lower note, and you end up with a flatissimo C# in the staff; C# above the staff just about right. Probably a bunch of other weird wonky pitch anomalies in the scale too.

My long distance presciption, therefore:

Lower key heights overall till you just start hearing a slight degree of effect; especially on the palm keys; use a larger chamber mouthpiece (*if applicable), push in. Get stable alto chops going, and then go down the side and palm keys to make small adjustments in pad height.

I see no reason a Keilwerth professional model alto would have any inherent tuning defects.

I'll be quite honest, I have rarely played a saxophone that didn't play better with the MP shoved in and played on a lower "input pitch center". I am convinced a lot of the "old sopranos play out of tune" canard is related to exactly this; I suspect entire schools of saxophonists have been going round compensating for mouthpiece chamber mismatches and assuming "that's just the way it is".

It's like when Paynes and Howell (joke!) made all their top line flutes with a scale directly copied from the A=435 Louis Lot flutes, with half an inch chopped off the headjoint - and then generations of flutists learned that "when you get your first really good flute, you have to learn how to blow it because really good flutes all play sharp up top and flat down low" - well, yeah, if they're A=435 flutes being played at A=440, they do!

 

[LostCircuits]

Yep, that's my long distance diagnosis - the pads are open to the moon, in search of "open tone" or whatever, so the whole thing is playing sharp, so you pull way out, and then the short tube notes are relatively flatter. Combine that with (Probably) a design decision at the factory to put some of the error of the wide C# octave on the lower note, and you end up with a flatissimo C# in the staff; C# above the staff just about right. Probably a bunch of other weird wonky pitch anomalies in the scale too.

My long distance presciption, therefore:

Lower key heights overall till you just start hearing a slight degree of effect; especially on the palm keys; use a larger chamber mouthpiece (*if applicable), push in. Get stable alto chops going, and then go down the side and palm keys to make small adjustments in pad height.

I see no reason a Keilwerth professional model alto would have any inherent tuning defects.

I'll be quite honest, I have rarely played a saxophone that didn't play better with the MP shoved in and played on a lower "input pitch center". I am convinced a lot of the "old sopranos play out of tune" canard is related to exactly this; I suspect entire schools of saxophonists have been going round compensating for mouthpiece chamber mismatches and assuming "that's just the way it is".

It's like when Paynes and Howell (joke!) made all their top line flutes with a scale directly copied from the A=435 Louis Lot flutes, with half an inch chopped off the headjoint - and then generations of flutists learned that "when you get your first really good flute, you have to learn how to blow it because really good flutes all play sharp up top and flat down low" - well, yeah, if they're A=435 flutes being played at A=440, they do!

Thank you!

Sometimes you have to say things 3 different ways to explain them.

 

[Targa]

.
Nice to know you’re not licking any frogs🤣

If you do you get a letter the next morning from the palace about inappropriate behaviour.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Thank you!

Sometimes you have to say things 3 different ways to explain them.

1st rule of teaching undergraduates

1. Tell them what you are going to teach them
2. Teach them the thing
3. Tell them what you just taught them

 

[skeller047]

1st rule of teaching undergraduates

1. Tell them what you are going to teach them
2. Teach them the thing
3. Tell them what you just taught them

I’ve heard that as an outline to making a good speech

Tell ‘em what you’re gonna to tell ‘em.
Tell ‘em.
Tell ‘em what you told ‘em.

 

[mizmar]

Sometimes you have to say things 3 different ways to explain them.

Like lost keys, sometimes the best explanation is the last one you tried!