Mouthpieces Bought the wrong mouthpiece

[inge]

Hello 🙁
I boobed - big time ! Bought a brand new mouthpiece for my tenor sax (Lawton gold plated 5*BB bronze). I play in a 50s rock & roll band and wanted a "harder" sound - thus the BB. Paid ? 244.53 for it. Been playing on a Lawton 7* B. Used the new one twice, can't play it in tune. Nearly got exterminated by the rest of the band. Can't send it back to change it either, once you use it, sax.co.uk will not exchange it. Note: I don't have foot and mouth disease or any other disease. Have gone back to my old one which has a broken reed attachment "screw thing". Any suggestions???

 

[Rogerb]

Put it in the Yard Sale 🙂

(It's either that or ritual suicide, I'm afraid, Inge 😀 )

 

[inge]

Hi Roger,
I know you meant well about your Plan A the "Yard Sale" - thanks for the advice, but it may not have to come to that. I had a reply from a guy who works for sax.co.uk and he has given me hope that they may exchange it after all. The time limit of 7 days has long gone, but I'll have a go.
I have made an executive decision about your Plan B - ritual suicide - I'm too young to die, but tomorrow I'll be a little older !!
Best regards,
Inge

 

[Saxlicker]

Good luck with the pending exchange!
Failing that, I'm 99% sure the ligature (screw thingy) will be interchangeable which solves an immediate issue while you still have both.
Long term, if the 5*BB goes and you keep the 7, an oleg ligature works very well with a lawton.
An oleg lig is a metal chain link which holds the reed and two bars that rest on top of the mouthpiece, drawn together with two screws. I don't care for its 'jewelery' looks but it works well with these pieces.

 

[rhysonsax]

Hi Inge,

I am really keen on Lawtons and have got a big collection of them from soprano down to baritone. I have never had problems with them playing badly out of tune. I have had some of the BB models that squeaked badly, but no other problems.

The 5* facing is quite closed compared with 7* (0.085" versus 0.105") which will make it much easier blowing. The big baffle (BB) will make it feel even easier blowing because the gap to the reed is so small. I would guess that if you used a 2.5 reed on the 7* Lawton, you would need to move to something like a 3.5 or 4 on the 5*BB.

Have you tried playing around with harder reeds as well as changing the basic tuning position on the cork ? If you are playing on a reed that is too soft for you, the tuning will be really "flexible" and will show up any slight problems with the embouchure. It could take quite a bit of getting used to this new set-up.

Good luck

Rhys

PS As far as I know the Lawton slide-on ligatures are interchangeable for the same size saxophone so the one on your new mouthpiece should fit your old one. Bill Lewingtons do sell replacement Lawton ligatures, but they are very pricey.

 

[Linky Lee]

Did you try the mouthpiece at the shop, or was this an on line purchase?

It's always best to try something unknown before you buy it. Also going to do this give you the opportunity to try out other pieces and possibly find something that gives you a better result that you hadn't thought of before.

 

[Linky Lee]

Damn, double posts.

 

[thomsax]

Why did you go from a 7*B to a 5BB? It's a big step. And the design of the chamber is different as well. When I changed my Dukoff D10 to a Dukoff D8 it was because I couldn't practise and play enough for running a mpc like a D10. Today I'm playing on a Dukoff X7, D7 or D8 depending on how much I'm playing. Reeds: LaVoz MH (downfiled) on D10 but LaVoz H (downfiled) on X7, D7/D8. I'm also playing on Berg Larsen 110/1 or 105/1 M facing. Can't make up my mind ... .

When I get a new mpc I use to play the old one and the new one parallel. It takes me two weeks up to a mounth to get used to a new mpc. It's hard to play a new mpc direct on gigs .

Otherwise Lawton mpc are among the best you can get. They are also expensive ..... .

Thomas

 

[milandro]

well if the mpc doesn't do it for you and you and the mpc don't agree enough to play in tune together......I am afraid that there's only one thing left to do and that is to see if someone else can play that in tune and you can find something else to please you. Sell it on.
😉

 

[inge]

Saxlicker wrote:
Good luck with the pending exchange!
Failing that, I'm 99% sure the ligature (screw thingy) will be interchangeable which solves an immediate issue while you still have both.
Long term, if the 5*BB goes and you keep the 7, an oleg ligature works very well with a lawton.
An oleg lig is a metal chain link which holds the reed and two bars that rest on top of the mouthpiece, drawn together with two screws. I don't care for its 'jewelery' looks but it works well with these pieces.

Hi Saxlicker 😛
Much appreciated your prompt advice. One way or another the 7* B has to stay. Just can't face changing the habit of a lifetime and can't tempt any further abuse from the "Gentlemen of the Orchestra" (actually a 5-piece Rock & Roll band with an attitude problem). If I can't change the 5* to a 7* I will buy the Oleg ligature you recommended. The "jewelery look" won't worry me.
Many thanks - best regards - Inge

 

[inge]

rhysonsax wrote:
Hi Inge,

I am really keen on Lawtons and have got a big collection of them from soprano down to baritone. I have never had problems with them playing badly out of tune. I have had some of the BB models that squeaked badly, but no other problems.

The 5* facing is quite closed compared with 7* (0.085" versus 0.105") which will make it much easier blowing. The big baffle (BB) will make it feel even easier blowing because the gap to the reed is so small. I would guess that if you used a 2.5 reed on the 7* Lawton, you would need to move to something like a 3.5 or 4 on the 5*BB.

Have you tried playing around with harder reeds as well as changing the basic tuning position on the cork ? If you are playing on a reed that is too soft for you, the tuning will be really "flexible" and will show up any slight problems with the embouchure. It could take quite a bit of getting used to this new set-up.

Good luck

Rhys

PS As far as I know the Lawton slide-on ligatures are interchangeable for the same size saxophone so the one on your new mouthpiece should fit your old one. Bill Lewingtons do sell replacement Lawton ligatures, but they are very pricey.

Hi Rhys, 🙂
Nice meeting another "Lawton Lover". You and me both. Use them on my also, tenor and baritone. In fact the alto Lawton is one of the originals, it still has Lawton-Barton stamped on it.
Thanks for the advice, particularly the technical "bafffle" reasons why my intended upgrade went pear-shaped. You're right, I use 2.5 reeds, reason for this is that we use an in-ear monitor system and I blow straight into a mike. With a harder reed I have to blast to get the bottom notes and can't play sub-tone when backing the vocalists. I know the ligature from the new 5* will fit onto the old 7*, but wanted to keep the new one "pristine" just in case sax.co.uk might be willing to exchange it. After this humbling experience I shall - one way or another - stick to the devil I know.
Thanks Rhys - I really appreciated your help.
Best regards - Inge

 

[inge]

Thomsax wrote:
Why did you go from a 7*B to a 5BB? It's a big step. And the design of the chamber is different as well. When I changed my Dukoff D10 to a Dukoff D8 it was because I couldn't practise and play enough for running a mpc like a D10. Today I'm playing on a Dukoff X7, D7 or D8 depending on how much I'm playing. Reeds: LaVoz MH (downfiled) on D10 but LaVoz H (downfiled) on X7, D7/D8. I'm also playing on Berg Larsen 110/1 or 105/1 M facing. Can't make up my mind ... .

When I get a new mpc I use to play the old one and the new one parallel. It takes me two weeks up to a mounth to get used to a new mpc. It's hard to play a new mpc direct on gigs .

Otherwise Lawton mpc are among the best you can get. They are also expensive ..... .

Thomas

Hi Thomas,
The reason I went from a 7* to a 5* star is because I'm a dumb bunny. My alto, tenor and baritone "live" on the band coach and I could not be arsed to double check. So I got my comeuppance. I just wanted a BB instead of a B to get a "harder" sound as I work for a Rock & Roll band. The BB sounded great in the bandroom - but on stage I experienced a valuable lesson !! I can't face the month long hassles to play them "in parallel" as you do, and so one way or another the 7* will have to stay. The 7* and me are joined at the hip. I had no idea - until after you explained - that it was such a big step. I've also learned that being stupid is expensive..... You'd think I'd know better after 25 years in the business.
Thank you Thomas for the advice and I'm off to carve myself another slice of humble pie.
Best regards - Inge

 

[inge]

Linky wrote:
Did you try the mouthpiece at the shop, or was this an on line purchase?

It's always best to try something unknown before you buy it. Also going to do this give you the opportunity to try out other pieces and possibly find something that gives you a better result that you hadn't thought of before.

Hi Linky,
I bought the mouthpiece on line. You're right of course, but at present it's like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted !
Sorry about the double-post, I'm new here and wasn't sure how it all worked. I wish I'd know about this site before, I could have saved myself a lot of grief. Thanks for the advice, nice of you to reply.
Best regards - Inge

 

[inge]

milandro wrote:
well if the mpc doesn't do it for you and you and the mpc don't agree enough to play in tune together......I am afraid that there's only one thing left to do and that is to see if someone else can play that in tune and you can find something else to please you. Sell it on.
😉

Hi Milandro,
Yep, you're right. Am applying for a quicky divorce from the BB 5*.
But thanks for taking the trouble to write. Have learned to look before I leap.....
Best regards - Inge

 

[rhysonsax]

Hi Inge,

I have just tried a Vandoren Optimum ligature (for V16 metal mouthpiece) on my tenor Lawton and that fits perfectly. The Optimum is one of the few ligatures that I can actually hear making a difference. A bit pricey, but worth it I think.

In my experience, going to a high baffle mouthpiece for edge and volume is great, but it does make the bottom notes on the horn much harder to play quietly. A simpler way of getting a bit more edge could be to try brighter reeds such as Rico Plasticover or Bari plastic.

And if you have the foldback properly sorted out so you can hear yourself against loads of guitars and drums, that can make edge less of an urgent issue. I now use a Soundback acoustic mirror fixed to the stand mic and I can hear my sax clearly with most mouthpieces.

My favourite tenor mouthpiece at the moment is a Lawton with "Reflector" machined into the high baffle. Lots of edge, but also warmth and quite easy to play. They were Geoff Lawton's experimental model and very rare.

Good luck

Rhys

PS I also found that the Lawton ICON model in BB has a much more flexible and rich sound that the "full on" standard BB model.

PPS If you haven't tried harder reeds on the 5*BB yet, then I suggest investing in a couple of your normal brand but one full strength harder. For the cost of a couple of quid you might find the tuning is sorted out and you really like the new piece.

 

[inge]

rhysonsax wrote:
Hi Inge,

I have just tried a Vandoren Optimum ligature (for V16 metal mouthpiece) on my tenor Lawton and that fits perfectly. The Optimum is one of the few ligatures that I can actually hear making a difference. A bit pricey, but worth it I think.

In my experience, going to a high baffle mouthpiece for edge and volume is great, but it does make the bottom notes on the horn much harder to play quietly. A simpler way of getting a bit more edge could be to try brighter reeds such as Rico Plasticover or Bari plastic.

And if you have the foldback properly sorted out so you can hear yourself against loads of guitars and drums, that can make edge less of an urgent issue. I now use a Soundback acoustic mirror fixed to the stand mic and I can hear my sax clearly with most mouthpieces.

My favourite tenor mouthpiece at the moment is a Lawton with "Reflector" machined into the high baffle. Lots of edge, but also warmth and quite easy to play. They were Geoff Lawton's experimental model and very rare.

Good luck

Rhys

PS I also found that the Lawton ICON model in BB has a much more flexible and rich sound that the "full on" standard BB model.

PPS If you haven't tried harder reeds on the 5*BB yet, then I suggest investing in a couple of your normal brand but one full strength harder. For the cost of a couple of quid you might find the tuning is sorted out and you really like the new piece.

Hi again Rhys,
Just turned on my computer and saw that you have sent me another "pearl of wisdom". Much appreciated. As I'm new here and have no idea how long the webmaster keeps posts alive, I'm copying and pasting the received advice into my documents, then I can check it out any time I want. Just in case the posts go off the radar. The Vandoren Optimum sounds a good bet. Our foldback is sorted OK, I can have as much or as little of anybody in the band and I get the effects like reverb and echo as well, which makes you feel good when you're playing, rather than the flat sound we used to get from floor monitors. I don't have the drums in there, because the b.....r is right behind me and beats hell out of his kit !

Thanks again Rhys, much appreciated.
Best regards - Inge

 

[inge]

Inge wrote:

rhysonsax wrote:
Hi Inge,

I have just tried a Vandoren Optimum ligature (for V16 metal mouthpiece) on my tenor Lawton and that fits perfectly. The Optimum is one of the few ligatures that I can actually hear making a difference. A bit pricey, but worth it I think.

In my experience, going to a high baffle mouthpiece for edge and volume is great, but it does make the bottom notes on the horn much harder to play quietly. A simpler way of getting a bit more edge could be to try brighter reeds such as Rico Plasticover or Bari plastic.

And if you have the foldback properly sorted out so you can hear yourself against loads of guitars and drums, that can make edge less of an urgent issue. I now use a Soundback acoustic mirror fixed to the stand mic and I can hear my sax clearly with most mouthpieces.

My favourite tenor mouthpiece at the moment is a Lawton with "Reflector" machined into the high baffle. Lots of edge, but also warmth and quite easy to play. They were Geoff Lawton's experimental model and very rare.

Good luck

Rhys

PS I also found that the Lawton ICON model in BB has a much more flexible and rich sound that the "full on" standard BB model.

PPS If you haven't tried harder reeds on the 5*BB yet, then I suggest investing in a couple of your normal brand but one full strength harder. For the cost of a couple of quid you might find the tuning is sorted out and you really like the new piece.

Hi again Rhys,
Just turned on my computer and saw that you have sent me another "pearl of wisdom". Much appreciated. As I'm new here and have no idea how long the webmaster keeps posts alive, I'm copying and pasting the received advice into my documents, then I can check it out any time I want. Just in case the posts go off the radar. The Vandoren Optimum sounds a good bet. Our foldback is sorted OK, I can have as much or as little of anybody in the band and I get the effects like reverb and echo as well, which makes you feel good when you're playing, rather than the flat sound we used to get from floor monitors. I don't have the drums in there, because the b.....r is right behind me and beats hell out of his kit !

Thanks again Rhys, much appreciated.
Best regards - Inge

P.S. for Rhys !
My partner in crime has just changed my picture - not that it matters, but he said the elongated non-square picture made my face long and thin - just like a horse. Nice. I think not....
Incidentally, that tenor in the picture is not mine, he got it off the internet to phtotoshop some band pictures.
Cheers - Inge

 

[Mikec]

Good luck with the mouthpiece. I just wanted to say I like the music; I checked out your band's web site.

 

[milandro]

well , we've all been there and done that, even if you'd tested it beforehand you wouldn't have know how you would have liked the mouthpiece after a while....and, as it happens , sometimes one gets enthusiastic about a mouthpiece or even a horn but , when the novelty has worn off, you discover that you don't really like it all that much.....so it is always good practice to keep things for a while in order to be able to make a reasoned choice and not an impulsive one.

Good luck with your next choice! 😉

 

[losaavedra]

Same as MikeC I checked out your site too ... love that stuff, although it's fifty-or-so years since I last did anything like it in a band. Quality sound!
(I know absolutely nothing about MPs so won't attempt to contribute on that front!)