Playing the saxophone What does professional musician mean?

[Pete Thomas]

“Amateur band” to me means a band that doesn’t receive money for their services. If you ever get paid, even only a couple bucks, or get a free meal, you’re professional. When there is money involved, “a few friends getting together for fun” gets more complicated.

I think this is the basis for an interesting discussion/debate.

My take is that a professional is someone who makes a living from playing. No other work. So in that case a couple of bucks or free meal is not it.

And of course there is semi-pro

 

[turf3]

Well, there are very few people who make a full time living from performance only. Most of those have spouses with reliable employment, health insurance, pension, etc.

As I noted in the other thread, there are a lot of versions of "professional musician". The guy who plays ten gigs a month for money, and drives Uber, mows lawns, and works behind the counter at the auto parts store to be able to survive, is he a professional? The guy who plays the same number of gigs, but has a teaching studio of 25 students, is he a professional? The guy who plays the same number of gigs, but makes his monthly nut selling insurance? How about when the guy who was playing ten gigs a month for money, marries an RN and quits all non-musical employment, does that convert him from "semi professional" to "full professional"?

To me, I think "professional" vs. "amateur" really comes down to the gig, rather than the individual person. When I was playing in society bands, we'd sometimes get $400 a man for a big dinner-dance - nice pay for the late 1990s. Some of us had full time non-musical professional jobs, some of us were high school band directors, some of us played gigs and taught students, some of us played gigs and had various minimum wage jobs, some played gigs and kept the children while the spouse went off to work every day at the hospital or software company. We were all getting paid the same, and we were expected to meet the same standards of quality in our performance. I'd call it a professional gig, being played by a band full of people with varying ways of making their income.

 

[lig]

I've been fortunate enough to have made a fair amount of $ over the years playing music.

That said - it has never been my primary source of income. I'd consider myself semi-pro, I guess. My term for that is "weekend warrior" 🙂

Eons ago I disappointed my dad by choosing business school over music when I went to college. He said "you're treating your education like it's trade school" 😀 and he wasn't wrong.

I was competent - All City Jazz, All City Orchestra, All City Band but there were tons of great musicians locally and it wasn't my dream to play music for a living being honest.

No regrets.

I managed to retire early and can play all I want now without regard to actually putting food on the table or making a mortgage or car payment.

 

[Grumps]

And of course there is semi-pro

Which I always loosely defined as making enough at playing on the side for which you are taxed.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The guy who plays ten gigs a month for money, and drives Uber, mows lawns, and works behind the counter at the auto parts store to be able to survive, is he a professional?

No, I would say he (or she) is semi-professional. There's also teaching of course. I have a funny (to me) anecdote regarding that.

 

[lig]

Which I always loosely defined as making enough at playing on the side for which you are taxed.

Love that now. Wrote off a ton of expenses and gear last year.

 

[skeller047]

Yes, I see the point. I’m not even in semi-pro status these days, I will receive no 1099s this year, unless I get a rash of calls for December. I’ve had some good meals though…

However, in the context of the quote, I was trying to make the point that no matter how little one is paid, if someone offers some kind of remuneration for musical service, one should treat it the same regardless of the amount or form. That is, show up on time, look your best, act your best and play your best. In other words, be a professional.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

When the Aids epidemic was blooming, I was up in NYC, on a wood buying trip.
Several of the senior Jazz musicians, asked me how I made money, when I lived there.
They were not keen on going on the road for one important reason.
My reply, Taught music for 50+ hours a week, as everyone wanted to learn how to fingerpick a guitar. Played when asked, for $$$, food, beverages, fun, and often falling in love with a Lady in Red.
I'm easy. 🥰

 

[Tonehole]

Would a musician who plays for cash but also teaches students not be a professional? Explain.
My clarinet teacher as a teen was a full time member of the Toronto Symphony.
My saxophone teacher at the same time an unemployed music graduate played for pay but could not pay his bills on that income so he taught.
My piano teacher was a full time employee at the Royal Conservatory of Music.
Which was the pro?

I have a best buddy who plays "full time" in the Mirvish musicals here in Toronto. Most would consider him a professional. He makes a decent income but due to schedules he rarely can gig outside the shows which are heavy on Fridays and weekends.
I have a full time job that is very flexible. So I am a "non professional musician" I guess but it is more than a side hustle.
He and I are flying to Vancouver to play in a "paying" gig. So who is the pro?

I now have a start up booking agency and am a partner with an established agency outside Toronto. Would that disqualify me from being a pro if I quit my day job?

Another buddy who gigs, an amazing player who with his wife runs a dance studio. So is he not a pro player because he helps with the studio and it helps support his family?

I had a mentor as a student who was a repair tech, ran his own shop yet was recognised as one of the top alto players in Canada, had a recording contract, won awards for his albums. Would he qualify as a pro?

Another of my buddies is also a repair tech and gigs and travels with a name band into the states and abroad. So not a pro even though he plays in sold out venues some rather prestigious with hundreds of paying fans? I have subbed in this band. Pro or No?

Is the old guy playing outside the ball stadium on his violin or a person busking in a subway station or park a pro?🤔

Why must a professional musician only sustain themselves by preforming?
What about Harry Connick Jr. a singer, jazz pianist, composer, and gasp an actor? Or what if you were a producer or a band director? Lots of examples of pros doing that.

Gotta Blow!

 

[atwl77]

I've seen this very same debate on the photography forums, and to me, there really isn't going to be any single consensus as everyone has their own opinion on that matter.

The one argument that I always hear will be that if you earn a living from it, you're a professional. Otherwise, you're an amateur.

But then there's another argument I hear a lot is where the pro is very good (i.e. extremely skilled), and that sometimes runs afoul with the idea of a bad musician (or photographer, or whatever) but still earns a full time living on it.

I think one problem is that the terms "professional" and "amateur" can have different meanings depending on context. On one hand, it can represent skill level, but on the other hand, it can also refer to a job (e.g. a working pro vs amateur hobbyist). And the differing opinions happen when people mix or muddy the terms.

 

[Tonehole]

Collins dictionary- Semi-professional sports players, musicians, and singers receive some money for playing their sport or for performing but they also have an ordinary job as well.

So are you a pro if you make more money playing then you do at your day job?

My clarinet teacher as a teen was a full time member of the Toronto Symphony. A pro.
My saxophone teacher at the same time an unemployed music graduate played for pay but could not pay his bills on that income so he taught. A semi pro
My piano teacher was a full time employee at the Royal Conservatory of Music. A pro?

“Amateur band” I believe reflects more on the level of musicianship, you could have a band of retired pro players who do community concerts and I would not call that an amateur band.

 

[Pete Effamy]

The standard top classical professional status would be either orchestral or soloist / chamber ensemble concerts and a “visiting “ professor in one or more of the top conservatoires by day. They teach because the days are free. This has always been so. I don’t see why other styles of musicians can’t do the same.

Anyway, for me, it’s about a distinction of ability. Thousands of musicians earn good money for gigs here , there and everywhere yet a great number of them are very poor players and for that reason I don’t consider them to be a professional.

 

[Stephen Howard]

It's a bit of a tricky one.

Let's say you got landed with a gig - jazz octet, at a jazz festival. The trumpet player pulls out at the last minute due to an injury - so you hunt around for a dep. What are your expectations going to be, musically, when they turn up for the gig?
Knowledge of a broad range of standards? Good sight-reading skills? No fluffs, bum notes or tuning issues? Ability to fit in and gel with the band - and to perform well?
Assuming they did all that on the night you'd have no hesitation in regarding them as professional - but in the course of chatting to them on the night you find out that they're a plumber by day.

So that's the problem with the word 'Professional' - it can mean 'Of a certain standard' and/or 'Sole source of income'.
People have chewed over this distinction before, which is why you sometimes see folks describing themselves as 'Full-time pro'.

Semi-pro is an interesting one though. Does it mean playing isn't your sole source of income...or does it mean that you're not quite up to snuff?

 

[Pete Thomas]

However, in the context of the quote, I was trying to make the point that no matter how little one is paid, if someone offers some kind of remuneration for musical service, one should treat it the same regardless of the amount or form. That is, show up on time, look your best, act your best and play your best. In other words, be a professional.

Absolutely agree. Professionalism can indeed mean attitude and not necessarily apply only to those who have a full time career playing.

The term professional is often used to imply quality, but some of the very best musicians I’ve known do no have music as their full time career. An amateur can he at the same level as a pro.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Would a musician who plays for cash but also teaches students not be a professional? Explain.

I don’t see how playing for cash makes a difference. It may be unusual to only accept work that pays in cash though. I’ve done work for cash when I was professional but mostly not. As a composer or producer work has always been paid by cheque (in the old days) or bank transfer. Likewise someone who is amateur or semi-pro may or may not be paid in cash.

Teaching is something that I can understand is or isn’t included under the term professional. For about two years of my life I was doing some teaching. At that point I considered myself to be semi professional x 2 a semi-professional musician and a semi-professional teacher. However I also know many performing musicians who also teach that I think off as professional.

 

[Pete Effamy]

All the classical soloists / big names I knew in my pre - saxophone life taught.

How far back do you want to go? Frederick Thurston? He taught (and married) Thea King. Brymer, Alan Hacker, David Campbell (my teacher), Colin Bradbury, Michael Collins.. these are just some of the big names from the UK, there are lots more.

Then there are the few I knew that played other instruments: Stephen Nagys - oboe; Christopher Hyde - Smith, William Bennett, and Trevor Wye - flute.

Hence, the term professional only applying to players whom only gig disqualifies a great many of the most revered players.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

When filing your income taxes, what code do you use?

When one if our regular group would pick up club date work, we were always paid in cash, while we packed up.
I told the boys to dress in suits/ties for a new place. After we played I told them, when you are handed the cash, walk to the end of the bar, and give the big guy 10%.
When the drummer balked but then folded and asked why not just give us 10% less, I replied.
It's an old European tradition of respect and a personal thanks.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Hence, the term professional only applying to players whom only gig disqualifies a great many of the most revered players.

Very true.

But what about players who only teach but don't perform?

 

[Pete Effamy]

It's an old European tradition of respect and a personal thanks.

How old ? 😮

 

[Pete Effamy]

Very true.

But what about players who only teach but don't perform?

Well if you never perform, but only teach you are a teacher.

What about players that only play and never teach?