Playing the saxophone What does professional musician mean?

[progger]

Or maybe even triality. The

Seems it can mean:

• Playing for a living.
• Being (very) accomplished.
• Behaving appropriately.

The Triforce of Professional Musicianship. 🧝‍♀️

 

[LostCircuits]

The thing to do be in a, closed shop, guild.
Then the Guild decides who's called what, what's the training, how much is paid, how much of that is kicked-up through to the Guild Grand Poobah etc.
That is how: Law, Engineering, Medicine, Accountancy, Academia and religion work now.
Want to be a professional? Tick these professional development boxes and send us $£€500 per annum.

A good summary of what's wrong with the world

 

[JayeNM]

Or maybe even triality.

Seems it can mean:

• Playing for a living.
• Being (very) accomplished.
• Behaving appropriately.

But Dual because musicians can only be expected to do two outta three....

 

[JayeNM]

A good summary of what's wrong with the world

But you get to be in The Club !

 

[LostCircuits]

It gets even more complicated when you ask Google: "what is the relationship between professional and professor"

Anwer: All professors are professionals, but not all professionals are professors.

After some decades in academia I don't really subscribe to this point of view but I thought I throw it in because the answer is a wonderful example of black and white thinking missing the point.

And after digesting this thread, I come to the conclusion that professional is foremost a state of mind. What you do with it is up to you or ascii code 42.

And if it is a state of mind, it is also volatile, which explains the amateurish behavior that we see on and off.

 

[mizmar]

And after digesting this thread, I come to the conclusion that professional is foremost a state of mind.

And other peoples judgement

 

[Sacks Of Phones]

depends upon whether he teaches or not and whether his whistling is any good.

Ah, whistling............the bane of good music everywhere. Or, more aptly put, how to ruin a potentially good song with bird calls.

 

[turf3]

I've seen this very same debate on the photography forums, and to me, there really isn't going to be any single consensus as everyone has their own opinion on that matter.

The one argument that I always hear will be that if you earn a living from it, you're a professional. Otherwise, you're an amateur.

But then there's another argument I hear a lot is where the pro is very good (i.e. extremely skilled), and that sometimes runs afoul with the idea of a bad musician (or photographer, or whatever) but still earns a full time living on it.

I think one problem is that the terms "professional" and "amateur" can have different meanings depending on context. On one hand, it can represent skill level, but on the other hand, it can also refer to a job (e.g. a working pro vs amateur hobbyist). And the differing opinions happen when people mix or muddy the terms.

Yes, but define "earn a living".

The guy who does NO other work than performing music, and earns all of $25,000 a year - and he's married to an RN who earns $90,000 a year. Is he a "professional"? If they get divorced and he has to start driving Uber and working behind the counter at the auto parts store, but he's playing exactly all the same gigs - does the fact that now he's got to take other work in order to survive, mean he's lost the "professional" status?

Another common scenario for young musicians is the First National Bank of Mom and Dad. If the young musician is doing NO other work than performing music, but his parents bought a condo and he's living there rent free; and they're also paying his car insurance and he's on their medical insurance. Is that "professional"?

Let's consider two young musicians, who pack up and go to New York City to try to make it on the scene there. The first one has no financial assistance from family. You can't survive in NYC as a 22 year old musician just getting started. He's got to take all kinds of non musical work, just to be able to eat. The second one gets an allowance from wealthy parents. He doesn't have to take non musical work. He can focus purely on making the scene, getting known, learning and getting better. Now when these two youngsters are both 25, three years into living in NYC, the first one is still taking all kinds of non musical work, the second one isn't; they're both equivalent talent and skill, and they're both playing the same number and kind of gigs. So the guy that's been getting a check from Mom and Dad every month for three years, is a "professional" and the other one isn't?

The idea or ideal, of the "professional" musican that does nothing but music, is pretty much obsolete. There are a FEW people who can make it without a spouse with steady employment, or support from mom and dad, or teaching lessons, or working at something else. But every year this becomes less realistic.

 

[lig]

Ah, whistling............the bane of good music everywhere. Or, more aptly put, how to ruin a potentially good song with bird calls.

You need to hear Nelson Rangell. Naturally I’d rather hear him playing the saxophone but the man can whistle!

 

[LostCircuits]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQWSYwdURZI&list=PLPZyRYNXbYOE13Nv0j5UqohGfir3-pOkW&index=4

 

[turf3]

Toots Thielemans.

 

[Bokagee]

What I learned from being a professional musician is that for the most part, nobody wants to be a professional musician. The necessarily travelling lifestyle has its perks -- all you really have to do is show up at the right place at the right time wearing the right clothes ready to play. No housework, cooking, taking out the trash, just show up and play. That's nice, but the reality is that you become somewhat homeless, and nobody really wants to be married to a professional musician.

Bird said he was a devout musician. I'll lean more toward that.

 

[Pete Thomas]

That's nice, but the reality is that you become somewhat homeless, and nobody really wants to be married to a professional musician.

I once had a girlfriend that I may well have married, but she insisted on me not being a professional musician - probably huge insecurity issues re: musicians getting up to no good on tour. But also a more rational decision that should there be family, it may be better for there to be a non-absentee dad.

I also took the decision for myself when I did get married to switch to full time composing as opposed to performing etc.

 

[Pete Effamy]

For me, the older I get, the longer my list of “no, I don’t really fancy that”.

- driving for hours
- playing more than 90 minutes
- playing after midnight
- trying to squeeze the band into space for a duo
- playing an inch away from energetic (drunk) dancers
- setting up early afternoon and playing late evening
- ill - prepared bands, winging it badly
- coming in as a dep with no charts
- wearing stupid / garish band outfits
- having to eat at service stations
- turning up to a venue with all your gear and having nowhere to park. In the rain.
- being shown the gents as a place to change
- not having a dedicated room to change / hang / put your gear

No, I don’t gig much anymore.

 

[rhysonsax]

For me, the older I get, the longer my list of “no, I don’t really fancy that”.

- driving for hours
- playing more than 90 minutes
- playing after midnight
- trying to squeeze the band into space for a duo
- playing an inch away from energetic (drunk) dancers
- setting up early afternoon and playing late evening
- ill - prepared bands, winging it badly
- coming in as a dep with no charts
- wearing stupid / garish band outfits
- having to eat at service stations
- turning up to a venue with all your gear and having nowhere to park. In the rain.
- being shown the gents as a place to change
- not having a dedicated room to change / hang / put your gear

No, I don’t gig much anymore.

Interesting that none of those relate specifically to the money side. Or really to fellow band members, except for the remark about ill-prepared bands.

Rhys

 

[Pete Effamy]

Interesting that none of those relate specifically to the money side. Or really to fellow band members, except for the remark about ill-prepared bands.

Rhys

...and that reminds me:

- I don't like playing with anyone I wouldn't want to have a coffee with..

Money.. it's never about money as there's almost never a decent amount in it.

 

[jazzdoh]

driving for hours
- playing after midnight

Two of the reasons i cut down my gigs several years ago.
I got so fed up of finishing around midnight and then had a 2/3 hour drive home.
Getting to bed at 3am was fine when i was in my 20/30s but in my early 60s it was a real pain.

 

[skeller047]

I still go to bed at 3 AM. But the reason is not that I’m out, but that I just don’t feel like getting out of my chair. Sometimes I just don’t make it to bed at all….

Being a musician is not really like having a career, where you are a “professional widget fixer” or something for the day, and then go home and forget about widgets until the next day. It’s more of a vocation, a calling - we don’t say “professional priest”, now, do we? I go home, and spend an hour or two thinking about why I played that F natural over a C7, and considering the possibilties of using a suspended chord there, or maybe just playing a Bb7 instead….

Also, there’s very little money in it.

 

[rhysonsax]

...and that reminds me:

- I don't like playing with anyone I wouldn't want to have a coffee with..

Money.. it's never about money as there's almost never a decent amount in it.

What about those occasions when someone asks you to play for (next to) nothing and says "It'll be good exposure for your band" ? Or doesn't that happen to you ?

Rhys

 

[Pete Effamy]

What about those occasions when someone asks you to play for (next to) nothing and says "It'll be good exposure for your band" ? Or doesn't that happen to you ?

Rhys

Yes it has been said on a few occasions, mostly when young(er) and almost always when the client has no money to pay and wants something for nothing. On the few occasions that a gig like this was done, it never led to anything.