Bad low B

[Bobby G]

The low B on my YAS62 has gone a bit peculiar, it doesn't pop out cleanly like the other notes, sometimes having a tendency to jump an octave before settling down. It's fine when I am playing subtone or very quietly, or when I am blowing hard, or when I use the octave key to produce the next B up. Also, the low Bb is not a problem. I've checked the B for leaks, also all the lower pads from D down seem to be leak-free using the fag-paper test.

What could be the cause of this mildly annoying phenomenon, apart from maybe operator error?

 

[griff136]

Bob,

sit down, place the sax between your legs so that the octave key is facing towards you. look down the bell and finger low B, with your other hand press the low C# spatula - does the C# open?

if so look on the arm that comes from the low B key cup and you will find a regulating screw. (This screw keeps the low C# pad shut when you finger low B - basically because some people cant hit the low B without touching the low C#)
turn the screw clockwise just enough to keep the C# shut as if you over regulate this mechanism, the low B will not shut fully.

that would the first thing I would check however this wouldnt make your B pop up the octave. Isuspect that maybe you have a little leak a bit further up.

Also check that all the key rods and screws are tight, and that all the springs are on their latches.

you could also get a friend to press on each pad in turn to check that none of the sprung shut keys are opening due to a weak spring.

good luck

 

[Bobby G]

Thanks Griff - I've already checked the C# isn't lifting (it was, but only a fraction so I adjusted the regulating screw, it only needed about 1/8 of a turn) but this doesn't seem to have made any difference to the low B.

Next step is checking for a leak somewhere further up, possibly one of the other keys which are usually sprung shut, they look ok but only a leak-light or trusty Rizla will tell for sure.

All springs are seated ok, maybe a lot of use since they were last adjusted may have weakened them enough to cause this problem?

 

[griff136]

it is strange that its only low B .

have you changed your set up recently or had a new cork on the crook perhaps?

is your mouthpiece on far enough? try pushing it in a tad further and then have a blow.

is your G# staying shut when you play any of the pinky table keys below D?

also try putting a wedge (wine cork) inbetween the key and the keyguard on low Eb, and then low C# individually to wedge the key shut and then have a blow - this will quickly determine whether theyre leaking or not.

 

[jools]

I don't have a low B key cup regulating screw, but I do have the same issue with the Yam23. *puzzled* tried the usual stuff, but it still sounds 'dead' and weak.

 

[Bobby G]

Jools wrote:
I don't have a low B key cup regulating screw, but I do have the same issue with the Yam23. *puzzled* tried the usual stuff, but it still sounds 'dead' and weak.

I wonder if it's a Yamaha thing, perhaps, in the same way I've heard that some horns can have a problem with low D? I've sorted out the leak problem, but the low B still sounds slightly dead by comparison. Oddly though this only manifests itself at certain volumes - if I'm playing really mellow, quiet and subtoney it's fine, if I'm really pushing it there's also no problem, but somewhere in the middle there is a volume where everything sounds fine and balanced except for that low B.... very odd.

 

[Taz]

I don't have any input on the subject, I'm just interrupting to say "Respect" to the avatar Bob 😉

 

[thomsax]

I think the low tones are a probleme on modern saxes! Are they built/constructed to play on this tones?

From my opinion comes low tones better out on vintage saxes like Martin, Conn, King, Dolnet, Kohlert, Keilwerth.... I think the walls of these saxes are thicker and can handle the vibrations and airstream better! And the are soldered.

On modern saxes the low tones can be closed, dead, flat..... . On most modern horns the tube are detachable to the bow. Soldering is better?!? The bell can be glued on modern saxes!!! The end of the sax should be tight.

You can have your YAS 62 rebuilt so the low tones comes out better. Resolder the connection between the bow and the bell. Make a brace that connect the tube, bow and bell so the vibrations can breed (???)/transmit better. I have seen and heard a Yamaha 61 tenor rebuilt like this and it sounds great on the low tones.

Thomas

 

[griff136]

earlier and student yamahas tend to have the body to bow connection epoxied in place - just as effective as soldering IMHO.

many saxes including my selmer mark 6's are held togerther by a clamp - they work fine.

saxes can leak at this junction - soldering can improve things - as can silicone and other forms of flexible rubber.

I suspect that Bob's sax has a minor leak somewhere.

 

[stephen_howard]

Low B can be problematic on many horns...old Selmers can be notorious in this respect ( there goes the vintage theory ).

The thickness of the body wall makes no difference at all - and you don't have to have a degree in physics to know this, you only need look at a couple of manufacturers websites to see that some will tell you that a 'thicker construction means less internal energy lost' and others will say 'thin walls resonate better and improve the tone'.
In other words it's ( cough ) rubbish.
Ditto the bell brace. Remember the thin brace on Buffet saxes...designed to resonate? Yeah, right.

And there's no need to solder the bell on - as long as the joint is sealed and stable that's all you need. I've worked on many an excellent Selmer that relied solely on the push-fit joint and the clamp...no sealant, no solder.

Given a fully working horn, the problems with the low B are overcome by working the embouchure to accomodate that note's particular requirements...in the same way as you might have to work to even out the G, or the middle D.
Bear in mind too that playing a low B means a significant portion of the sound is coming out of the low Bb tone hole - and because of it's position on the horn it's 'firing backwards' at you. You might well find that a listener will report little if any difference in the tone.

Other than that, what Griff said - there's usually a small leak somewhere.

Regards,

 

[Pete Thomas]

Stephen Howard wrote:

And there's no need to solder the bell on - as long as the joint is sealed and stable that's all you need. I've worked on many an excellent Selmer that relied solely on the push-fit joint and the clamp...no sealant, no solder.

For normal use yes, but I used to have a reoccurring problem with my MKVI bell. It would constantly get shifted round slightly, putting the B and Bb out of wack. I would take it to a tech about once a month and he'd put it back, but sure enough after a couple of weeks it would have shifted round - always in a clockwise direction.

After a while I discovered exactly what was causing this. Guess what it was (Stephen and Griff especially may well know)

Answers on a postcard...

 

[stephen_howard]

For sure - the joint has to be secure. I've seen joints where a strip of emery paper has been inserted between the tubes to give a bit of grip!

As for the recurring slippage...I think you told me this one...

Regards,

 

[griff136]

was it your case that was causing your bell to move?

 

[Pete Thomas]

Well, indirectly.

It was a moulded case (not a soft gig bag_ with good internal padding,

BUT

When I was in a hurry (very often) I'd sling it over my shoulder, and the centrifugal force would cause the bell to turn clockwise in its socket. As soon as I realised this, I put it over my shoulder more carefully and the problem stopped.

To be more correct probably not the centrifugal force but some other force like momentum, or whatever it is that makes something want to carry on moving when you stop it.

I failed physics O level.

 

[thomsax]

Thank you for the lession.

A question:
I had a bari, Conn 12M prewar, renovated the other year. The repairman loose the solderings (tub, bow, bell) and resoldered. Instead of resolder, could he use glue and something to seal with (silicone)? I guess gluing would cut hours instead of soldering.

 

[thomsax]

A picture of the brace on the bow and soundclip. Great high and low tones!
http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm201/thomsax/?action=view&current=brace.flv

 

[stephen_howard]

I wouldn't advise it on the Conn...there's no clamp, which would mean the horn would be relying on just the sealant for strength. This can work, but the joint needs to be designed with this in mind.
It wouldn't save you that much time either....with a clean joint and a skilled hand it takes barely a few minutes to solder up a bell joint...and only a few more to clean it up if you've done a neat enough job.

Regards,

 

[saxismyaxe]

One of the reasons why I do not like the removable bell feature. Sorry techs, I know this design is to make life a bit easier for you, although it comes with it's own set of problems in that department as well.

 

[Bobby G]

I've read everything here since my last post and I agree with all of it, or I can see where it's coming from at least, particularly the stuff about the sound from a low B firing back via the Bb tone hole. I'm still getting a very small problem, most of which I can get round by making a small adjustment to my embouchure (the disadvantage of this is that I now have to make a conscious adjustment rather than a natural one, especially if I dropping down to the B from, say, the D or E), but the low B still doesn't 'feel' quite right, compared to how it was a week or two ago, so I can only conclude I have a minor leak or regulation problem somewhere. Blowed if I can find it, this could be a job for a professional as the only attention this horn has had since I bought it a couple of years ago has been at my own sweet hands, so I suspect the whole thing could do with sorting properly.... but, until something like this happens I'm sure you get used to playing around any small changes almost unconsciously, so who can tell how far the horn has come out of adjustment in those two years. Well, obviously, Stephen or Griff - why d'ya have to be so far away, chaps? :erm:

 

[stephen_howard]

You're going to have to be methodical...
Start at the very top of the horn and assume that every pad is leaking until you have confirmed it isn't by checking with a fag paper.
In particular, look carefully for splits in the pads.
Go right down the horn checking each individual pad. Try each pad at north, south, east and west at least...and assume that any difference at all in how the fag paper pulls out will indicate a possible leak.
If all is well you can start checking the regulation.
Press the top B key down and check the seat of smaller auxiliary pad just above it....it should seat as well as it did when you tested it on its own.
Test the link between the Bis Bb key and the A key...press the A key down and test the seat of the Bis Bb key pad.
Test the auxiliary F key pad in the same way that you tested the B aux. pad.
Check the low E and D regulation in the same fashion - it doesn't do any harm to have the low D key not quite close the aux. key...there's always a bit of spring in the linkage which can often hold the D cup off the tonehole ever so slightly.

If all is well, test the octave key pads...both fully closed, then with each one open ( octave G then A ).

If you don't find anything, try this...
Get an artists paintbrush, mix up a little luke-warm water with a little bit of washing up liquid..stir up a little lather. Now 'paint' this water onto the low Eb, C and C# key pads...get them good and wet ( you might have to re-apply the suds after a few minutes ). Give it 15 minutes or so to soak into the leather...then play-test the horn.
Dry the pads thoroughly afterwards ( blot with kitchen towel ).

If none of that works then you're into 'gor blimey' territory...which could mean anything from mechanical fault that only appears under certain circumstances...to there being a dead bee stuck in the crook...or something like that.

You could try a 'cold reset' - wedge every key closed with bits of cork ( firmly, but not too hard..and try to avoid placing the wedges against any existing corks as it will compress them ), including the normally closed cups. Leave for 24 hours. If you can leave the horn somewhere warm, so much the better. Remove the corks when the sax has cooled.

You could also try putting the horn away for a week and not even thinking about it....you'd be surprised how often that clears up problems like this.

Good luck!

Regards,