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Martin Indiana Saxophones Part 1 - The Indiana Band Instrument Company
I have been trying to learn more about Martin Indiana saxophones recently. The Indiana was the brand name for Martin’s second-line instruments.
I thought I would write down what I have found out. None of this information is new or original - I’m just trying to put it all in one place. And of course there may be mistakes in what I am writing.
My main sources have been “The Martin Story”, SaxPics, saxophone.org and SOTW.
The Martin Story website is an excellent resource for people who want to learn about Martin saxophones:
The Martin Story - All there is to know about Martin saxophones
The Indiana Band Instrument Company
The Indiana Band Instrument Company was created in 1928 by the Martin management as a brand for their second-line instruments. IBICo never had a separate existence from Martin and IBICo never had a separate factory. Indiana saxes were made in the main Martin factory in Elkhart. (See below for sources.)
There is an informative article on the history of Indiana saxophones in the Bassic Sax blog:
The Indiana Band Instrument Co. | The Bassic Sax Blog
This article quotes Greg Holtz, the grandson of the Martin Manager Fred Holtz:
“In December 1928, in order to broaden their customer base, Mr Bassett (majority owner and G.M.) and Grandad incorporated The Indiana Band Instrument Company. Like Conn had done several years earlier with their Pan American brand, and then Buescher, with their Elkhart Band Instrument division, it allowed Martin to produce and market a line of less costly instruments to those who could not afford the premium Martin offerings.
“These entities were wholly owned by their parent, but at least in the case of MBI, both Martin and Indiana lines were built on the same line by the same craftsmen. These were long before ‘student horns’ were ever conceived. Rather Martin brought older retired top-of-the-line models (with existing tooling) back to life. The Indiana horns were of excellent quality (the Indiana saxophone, for instance, was a dead ringer for the older Handcraft Standard premium horn).
“During war production buildup in 1942, Martin dropped the Indiana Band Instrument logo, and subsequently , labeled the horns as “INDIANA by Martin”. MBI did keep the serial numbers on a separate ledger.
“In 1961, Paul Richards, a businessman with little band instrument experience, purchased three companies (Martin, Blessing, Reynolds and their factories) to produce as many student horns as possible. With the success of ‘The Music Man’ on Broadway and the movie in the works, he had dreamed of a huge student horn boom. Sadly he was wrong and faced bankruptcy in less than two years.
“Wurlitzer, a longtime Martin client) picked up the pieces and operated the Elkhart plant for several years, until the Leblanc sale. The Indiana horns were produced throughout all those years.”
In another thread, another grandson, Chris Holtz, wrote:
“As many have noted the Indiana product line made use of older designs and tooling , perhaps also removing a feature or two.”
Source: Post #33 in the SOTW thread
https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/a-bit-of-martin-family-history.175073/page-2
And thomsax writes on a Cafe Sax thread:
“This is my own conclusions/thoughts. They are based on articles, books, contact with guys who knows and have worked on Martin saxes and a former Martin worker (in the 50') that I had contact with in late 80's.
“Where were they made?
I don't think they were made in separate buildings . But two companies IBICO (Indiana Band Instruments Company) and Martin Band Instruments. In the 50's they were made in the same building but not at the same time. The staff was told to clear out the benches/workplaces and make ready for Indiana production. They used old tools for Indiana. The tempo was high and the quality control was less. The shouldn't spend so much time on each saxophone. So they did lots of Indianas during a short (some weeks or months?) time. And If you see the serial charts many Indiana were made in late 50's. But It was also during these years the big market for student saxes increased.”
Source: Post #14 in the Café Saxophone thread
https://cafesaxophone.com/threads/saxophone-evolution.29351/#post-435686
I have been trying to learn more about Martin Indiana saxophones recently. The Indiana was the brand name for Martin’s second-line instruments.
I thought I would write down what I have found out. None of this information is new or original - I’m just trying to put it all in one place. And of course there may be mistakes in what I am writing.
My main sources have been “The Martin Story”, SaxPics, saxophone.org and SOTW.
The Martin Story website is an excellent resource for people who want to learn about Martin saxophones:
The Martin Story - All there is to know about Martin saxophones
The Indiana Band Instrument Company
The Indiana Band Instrument Company was created in 1928 by the Martin management as a brand for their second-line instruments. IBICo never had a separate existence from Martin and IBICo never had a separate factory. Indiana saxes were made in the main Martin factory in Elkhart. (See below for sources.)
There is an informative article on the history of Indiana saxophones in the Bassic Sax blog:
The Indiana Band Instrument Co. | The Bassic Sax Blog
This article quotes Greg Holtz, the grandson of the Martin Manager Fred Holtz:
“In December 1928, in order to broaden their customer base, Mr Bassett (majority owner and G.M.) and Grandad incorporated The Indiana Band Instrument Company. Like Conn had done several years earlier with their Pan American brand, and then Buescher, with their Elkhart Band Instrument division, it allowed Martin to produce and market a line of less costly instruments to those who could not afford the premium Martin offerings.
“These entities were wholly owned by their parent, but at least in the case of MBI, both Martin and Indiana lines were built on the same line by the same craftsmen. These were long before ‘student horns’ were ever conceived. Rather Martin brought older retired top-of-the-line models (with existing tooling) back to life. The Indiana horns were of excellent quality (the Indiana saxophone, for instance, was a dead ringer for the older Handcraft Standard premium horn).
“During war production buildup in 1942, Martin dropped the Indiana Band Instrument logo, and subsequently , labeled the horns as “INDIANA by Martin”. MBI did keep the serial numbers on a separate ledger.
“In 1961, Paul Richards, a businessman with little band instrument experience, purchased three companies (Martin, Blessing, Reynolds and their factories) to produce as many student horns as possible. With the success of ‘The Music Man’ on Broadway and the movie in the works, he had dreamed of a huge student horn boom. Sadly he was wrong and faced bankruptcy in less than two years.
“Wurlitzer, a longtime Martin client) picked up the pieces and operated the Elkhart plant for several years, until the Leblanc sale. The Indiana horns were produced throughout all those years.”
In another thread, another grandson, Chris Holtz, wrote:
“As many have noted the Indiana product line made use of older designs and tooling , perhaps also removing a feature or two.”
Source: Post #33 in the SOTW thread
https://www.saxontheweb.net/threads/a-bit-of-martin-family-history.175073/page-2
And thomsax writes on a Cafe Sax thread:
“This is my own conclusions/thoughts. They are based on articles, books, contact with guys who knows and have worked on Martin saxes and a former Martin worker (in the 50') that I had contact with in late 80's.
“Where were they made?
I don't think they were made in separate buildings . But two companies IBICO (Indiana Band Instruments Company) and Martin Band Instruments. In the 50's they were made in the same building but not at the same time. The staff was told to clear out the benches/workplaces and make ready for Indiana production. They used old tools for Indiana. The tempo was high and the quality control was less. The shouldn't spend so much time on each saxophone. So they did lots of Indianas during a short (some weeks or months?) time. And If you see the serial charts many Indiana were made in late 50's. But It was also during these years the big market for student saxes increased.”
Source: Post #14 in the Café Saxophone thread
https://cafesaxophone.com/threads/saxophone-evolution.29351/#post-435686
81 Replies
·
55739 views
Saxophones C Melody Saxophones
I've been interested in C Melody saxes, for a while.
Apparently, they were quite common in the 1920s-30s, and the general concensus seems to be that the designs got better as time went on. Earlier models were often made in High Pitch (a tuning system that predates using A=440Hz), and should be avoided, unless you want to accompany a Highland bagpipe player.
From what little research I've done, it seems Conn made some of the better sounding ones, and their later models were improvements over the earlier ones. The ones with a "straight" neck, similar to an alto, are supposed to be good. Personally, I don't really like the S shaped neck on a tenor.
Anyway, here's one I've asked about recently. I've posted a couple of these pictures in Ads's review discussion thread of the Sakkusu C Melody sax, but here's all I have.
This is a 1924/1925 Conn C Melody, currently for sale at the Trevor Jones shop in Bristol. It's in low pitch, has had a partial repad, and is ready to play.
Bristol is a bit far for me to visit so I asked if they could send me photos, particularly of the hand positions, because the ergonomics are a bit different on these old saxes, and C melody saxes in particular.
Ermm... there seems to be a 2 file upload limit. Hopefully, that's per post
The thumb rest is apparently soldered on, so can't be adjusted easily, but the position looks good for reaching the right side trill keys (Bb/C/high E). This seems to be an issue on the Sakkusu / Thoman C Melody (see https://cafesaxophone.com/threads/sakkusu-c-melody-saxophone-review.13705/Ads's Sakkusu C Melody review[/URL])
The "L" stamped below the serial number indicates it's built for "Low" pitch - i.e. designed for modern A=440Hz tuning. I've read different accounts of what was meant by High Pitch (and maybe there was more than one definition), but the consensus seems to be it was at least A=450Hz, or A=453Hz - kind of between semitones, in modern tuning, and too far out to compensate for by positioning the mouthpiece differently etc.
It's important to check for that when buying any brass or woodwind instrument from that period. I think military bands kept it going for a while longer, in Britain. Scottish bagpipe and Irish/Scottish Bb flute players tend to still use it, as I understand it. It's certainly the normal tuning for 5 or 6 key Bb flutes.
Apparently, they were quite common in the 1920s-30s, and the general concensus seems to be that the designs got better as time went on. Earlier models were often made in High Pitch (a tuning system that predates using A=440Hz), and should be avoided, unless you want to accompany a Highland bagpipe player.
From what little research I've done, it seems Conn made some of the better sounding ones, and their later models were improvements over the earlier ones. The ones with a "straight" neck, similar to an alto, are supposed to be good. Personally, I don't really like the S shaped neck on a tenor.
Anyway, here's one I've asked about recently. I've posted a couple of these pictures in Ads's review discussion thread of the Sakkusu C Melody sax, but here's all I have.
This is a 1924/1925 Conn C Melody, currently for sale at the Trevor Jones shop in Bristol. It's in low pitch, has had a partial repad, and is ready to play.
Bristol is a bit far for me to visit so I asked if they could send me photos, particularly of the hand positions, because the ergonomics are a bit different on these old saxes, and C melody saxes in particular.
Ermm... there seems to be a 2 file upload limit. Hopefully, that's per post
The thumb rest is apparently soldered on, so can't be adjusted easily, but the position looks good for reaching the right side trill keys (Bb/C/high E). This seems to be an issue on the Sakkusu / Thoman C Melody (see https://cafesaxophone.com/threads/sakkusu-c-melody-saxophone-review.13705/Ads's Sakkusu C Melody review[/URL])
The "L" stamped below the serial number indicates it's built for "Low" pitch - i.e. designed for modern A=440Hz tuning. I've read different accounts of what was meant by High Pitch (and maybe there was more than one definition), but the consensus seems to be it was at least A=450Hz, or A=453Hz - kind of between semitones, in modern tuning, and too far out to compensate for by positioning the mouthpiece differently etc.
It's important to check for that when buying any brass or woodwind instrument from that period. I think military bands kept it going for a while longer, in Britain. Scottish bagpipe and Irish/Scottish Bb flute players tend to still use it, as I understand it. It's certainly the normal tuning for 5 or 6 key Bb flutes.
577 Replies
·
71133 views
Miscellaneous US/UK linguistics - different words and spelling
Prompted by an hilarious joke I made at jbtsax's expense I was thinking about US spelling vs UK
To me the US seems to have gone the way of phonetic spelling with certain words; plough is plow, humour is humor, tumour is tumor, potato is tomato (I think I'm right)
So....
What happened to route? The spelling stayed the same but instead the pronunciation changed
Why?
To me the US seems to have gone the way of phonetic spelling with certain words; plough is plow, humour is humor, tumour is tumor, potato is tomato (I think I'm right)
So....
What happened to route? The spelling stayed the same but instead the pronunciation changed
Why?
159 Replies
·
8519 views
Saxophones Pork Tales: Saxophone Repair DIY Adventures.
Tales from a pig that likes to stick his nose into everything.
Paint that S. How difficult could it be ?
1) Search the net.
2) Find the color.
3) Order color.
4) Study task on University of YouTube, aka; For destruction by DYI presented by pro tech.
Do the cleaning & prep.
Paint and cleanup / detail the edges with hard cotton swabs. Sounds easy……
Yeah tha guy Matt makes it look easy.
Anyone remember your first experience cooking bacon crispy while still in the frying pan !
Paint that S. How difficult could it be ?
1) Search the net.
2) Find the color.
3) Order color.
4) Study task on University of YouTube, aka; For destruction by DYI presented by pro tech.
Do the cleaning & prep.
Paint and cleanup / detail the edges with hard cotton swabs. Sounds easy……
Yeah tha guy Matt makes it look easy.
Anyone remember your first experience cooking bacon crispy while still in the frying pan !
1020 Replies
·
56828 views
Saxophone beginners If you had to do it all again
Evening all.
I'm returning to playing the sax after nearly 25 years, used to play alto (played in various bands, gigs in pubs, clubs, fesitvals, weddings & wakes, recorded some albums). I've only gone and bought myself a tenor off of ebay by accident and i'm planning to do some practice, mostly so I can get some half decent sounding brass parts down on my computer based deep house noodling.
When i started learning (early 90s) I taught myself, never had a lesson and subsequently developed a load of bad habits. These days there's something called youtube and it's full ofAI slop tutorials for people to learn off so I've had a look around.
I'm planning on focussing on my embechoure first (long notes, stupid face exercises), intonation then finger placement (always moved my fingers too much and hit the pads too hard).
So my question is, if you had to do it all again - how would you go about it, what would you concentrate on?
Coke Escovado - I wouldn't change a thing
I'm returning to playing the sax after nearly 25 years, used to play alto (played in various bands, gigs in pubs, clubs, fesitvals, weddings & wakes, recorded some albums). I've only gone and bought myself a tenor off of ebay by accident and i'm planning to do some practice, mostly so I can get some half decent sounding brass parts down on my computer based deep house noodling.
When i started learning (early 90s) I taught myself, never had a lesson and subsequently developed a load of bad habits. These days there's something called youtube and it's full of
I'm planning on focussing on my embechoure first (long notes, stupid face exercises), intonation then finger placement (always moved my fingers too much and hit the pads too hard).
So my question is, if you had to do it all again - how would you go about it, what would you concentrate on?
Coke Escovado - I wouldn't change a thing
23 Replies
·
2437 views
Miscellaneous What is “Politics”?
In the current thread on AI, Pete reminded us to keep politics out of the discussion, and to put side queries in another thread. So here is the side query…
When does a discussion become political? If something is an important societal topic (e.g., the state of music education, or the emergence of AI), there are certain to be politicians and government employees involved somehow. (Well, maybe not in music education, more’s the pity.) I’d like some clarity and perhaps a discussion on where the line is.
Case in point - government involvement in and support of health care. In most of the developed world, this is a non-issue. In the USA it’s a political hot potato. But this topic is important culturally and socially. Studies on strategies for extending lifespan. What tests to get, and where and how to get them. Seeking advice on a particular health condition. Etc. Here in the US, this can stray very easily into political waters - because of the various money, power and philosophical opinions around the subject.
So if I say “I think taxpayer funds should be used to provide a sensible baseline of health care support for everyone”, is that political? Or do I have to add something about a particular politician, or perhaps discuss specific legislation, to make it cross the line? “Joe Blow is an idiot because he thinks Medicare should be cancelled.”
I ask because topics like AI and healthcare affect us all, both as musicians and as humans in society. (Also as saxophonists, because some AI systems seem to think one needs 7 or 8 fingers per hand to play one!)
In the current discussion of AI, which is important IMO, there are obvious cultural and societal implications around the uses of AI. And these very easily stray into discussions of current political topics because various governments and government agencies are actively involved. Some guidelines on where to draw the boundaries of the discussion would be helpful.
When does a discussion become political? If something is an important societal topic (e.g., the state of music education, or the emergence of AI), there are certain to be politicians and government employees involved somehow. (Well, maybe not in music education, more’s the pity.) I’d like some clarity and perhaps a discussion on where the line is.
Case in point - government involvement in and support of health care. In most of the developed world, this is a non-issue. In the USA it’s a political hot potato. But this topic is important culturally and socially. Studies on strategies for extending lifespan. What tests to get, and where and how to get them. Seeking advice on a particular health condition. Etc. Here in the US, this can stray very easily into political waters - because of the various money, power and philosophical opinions around the subject.
So if I say “I think taxpayer funds should be used to provide a sensible baseline of health care support for everyone”, is that political? Or do I have to add something about a particular politician, or perhaps discuss specific legislation, to make it cross the line? “Joe Blow is an idiot because he thinks Medicare should be cancelled.”
I ask because topics like AI and healthcare affect us all, both as musicians and as humans in society. (Also as saxophonists, because some AI systems seem to think one needs 7 or 8 fingers per hand to play one!)
In the current discussion of AI, which is important IMO, there are obvious cultural and societal implications around the uses of AI. And these very easily stray into discussions of current political topics because various governments and government agencies are actively involved. Some guidelines on where to draw the boundaries of the discussion would be helpful.
35 Replies
·
550 views
Animals Show us your Wildlife
Inspired by the convolution of the Show us your pet and Help a Hedgehog threads...
Here's one from another thread;
Red Squirrel
(They exist in Norway)
Here's one from another thread;
Red Squirrel
(They exist in Norway)
872 Replies
·
41269 views
Cafe Moderator
Café Supporter
Miscellaneous Daily Check In
Good morning,
We thought it might be good to have a thread where you can just come and say hi, tell us what you are doing today, have a moan, share an idea that you wouldn't necessarily start a thread for ( we can always create a new thread from posts here if it became a substantial discussion).
It doesn't have to be sax related🙂
Basically an easy way to connect on a daily basis.
So to kick us off, I am writing this whilst prepping a casserole for the slo cooker as I am playing sax today with café sax and need a quick easy tea when I get home.
I am still suffering with a cough which will impact my playing today and I am worried as we are playing our first care home gig next Sunday!!
Have a lovely Sunday
Jx
We thought it might be good to have a thread where you can just come and say hi, tell us what you are doing today, have a moan, share an idea that you wouldn't necessarily start a thread for ( we can always create a new thread from posts here if it became a substantial discussion).
It doesn't have to be sax related🙂
Basically an easy way to connect on a daily basis.
So to kick us off, I am writing this whilst prepping a casserole for the slo cooker as I am playing sax today with café sax and need a quick easy tea when I get home.
I am still suffering with a cough which will impact my playing today and I am worried as we are playing our first care home gig next Sunday!!
Have a lovely Sunday
Jx
2799 Replies
·
80806 views
The dates have been announced for the 2027 International Saxophone Symposium hosted by the Navy Band at George Mason University: January 8-9.
Plan your trip now if you're coming from afar.
Plan your trip now if you're coming from afar.
18 Replies
·
689 views
Saxophones Windcraft WAS-110 Alto
Me again !!
I have been offered the above complete with mouthpiece, care kit, strap, and case, for £215 (+ p&p) - wondering if this is a good deal?
@Steve Howard reviewed one of them some time ago and gave it a reasonably good review at the time - are they still worth picking up or would a Jupiter or Antigua Winds be a better option (for a beginner)?
Any thoughts / comments appreciated......
Thanks
I have been offered the above complete with mouthpiece, care kit, strap, and case, for £215 (+ p&p) - wondering if this is a good deal?
@Steve Howard reviewed one of them some time ago and gave it a reasonably good review at the time - are they still worth picking up or would a Jupiter or Antigua Winds be a better option (for a beginner)?
Any thoughts / comments appreciated......
Thanks
48 Replies
·
4582 views
Cafe Moderator
Commercial
Miscellaneous Do you have a “pet peeve”
And care to share it with us?
176 Replies
·
9287 views
Mouthpieces Jody jazz DV Chicago tenor.
Anyone using one on tenor? What are your impressions and thoughts? Cheers!
8 Replies
·
182 views
Blog Tenor Viol's musings
OK. I've thought about doing this for a while - setting up a general thread for me to post in, rather than necessarily creating a separate new thread every time for relatively minor matters, or discussion of how things are going etc.
So, the first item is my FB page got me with an Amazon advert and I seem to have ordered a jazz theory book... It will get delivered to the Amazon lockers at work on Monday
Tomorrow is a Café Trio/Quartet...Septet day where @trimmy is going to demonstrate ascending chromatic scales in augmented fourths, and descending in diminished fifths... 😀
Yesterday was a wind band concert in Maghull. There were about 85 of us playing. We had a contrabassoon in the band...
So, the first item is my FB page got me with an Amazon advert and I seem to have ordered a jazz theory book... It will get delivered to the Amazon lockers at work on Monday
Tomorrow is a Café Trio/Quartet...Septet day where @trimmy is going to demonstrate ascending chromatic scales in augmented fourths, and descending in diminished fifths... 😀
Yesterday was a wind band concert in Maghull. There were about 85 of us playing. We had a contrabassoon in the band...
1918 Replies
·
109606 views
Playing the saxophone Falling from Altisimo A? (and falls in general)
In an arrangement of Oye Como Va, by Johnny Ferreira we have
DFDFDFA on the second register, then at the top.
I'm just about stable on D to altisimo A - good exercise for me!
But G is quite far away, fungering wise..
My best alt A is L23+a side key.
How would you approach the fall?
Thanks.
DFDFDFA on the second register, then at the top.
I'm just about stable on D to altisimo A - good exercise for me!
But G is quite far away, fungering wise..
My best alt A is L23+a side key.
How would you approach the fall?
Thanks.
20 Replies
·
249 views
Mouthpiece/Lig FS for sale - Phil-tone Isotope tenor mouthpiece, 8*
for sale - a rare beast, the Phil-tone Isotope. This has been discontinued for a while, it was a collaboration between Phil-tone and Theo Wanne -beautifully made piece as you'd expect. Comes with the original wooden box. Big step baffle so unsurprisingly leans towards the bright side with a clean, modern sound, but I found it to be capable of a bit more warmth and versatility than a guardala for example.
Always used with a patch, I've removed this to give it a clean up for selling and you can see on the photos there's a bit of a colour difference on the beak where the patch has been stuck on. There's also some discolouration on the table which I've shown in the photos below, this was there when I purchased it (I'm not the first owner) but doesn't affect playability - table is flat and rails are unblemished. I've found myself to be more comfortable on rollover baffles, but this needs to be enjoyed by someone instead of sitting on my shelf. UK postage only please.
Always used with a patch, I've removed this to give it a clean up for selling and you can see on the photos there's a bit of a colour difference on the beak where the patch has been stuck on. There's also some discolouration on the table which I've shown in the photos below, this was there when I purchased it (I'm not the first owner) but doesn't affect playability - table is flat and rails are unblemished. I've found myself to be more comfortable on rollover baffles, but this needs to be enjoyed by someone instead of sitting on my shelf. UK postage only please.
1 Replies
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81 views
Mouthpiece/Lig FS for sale - PPT 8* tenor mouthpiece
Selling my PPT tenor mouthpiece, 8* tip opening. Very lightly used, always used a mouthpiece patch but have taken this off to clean it up for sale here. Will be posted with the original packaging and tube. Nice versatile piece, lots of reviews/demos on the site already for you to peruse. UK postage only please. Thanks for looking!
0 Replies
·
89 views
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