Vintage tenor to restore

[nosaxyet]

I may be mad but I've decided to look for a vintage tenor sax to restore/renovate.

I'm looking for a good quality sax to use when the restoration is complete.

What should I consider and are there any good reference books on vintage saxes?

 

[freddysilk]

Actually I'm in the process of getting a King Zephyr overhauled and restored. The horn is about 50 years old give or take but since it was well taken care of, the lacquer is about 90 percent.

The only problem is the pads which has dry rotted and the rods are out of alignment. Other than that, it has an edgy sound I like for jazz which is similar to a Selmer Mark VI (similar but not exactly the same) but for less than $2000 USD, I purchased it.

My overhaul restoration includes: new Selmer pads, dents and scratches removed, silver plating all over except for the keys, neck, and inside of the bell that I rather have a dark golden finish, and final tweaking to ensure the intonation is on point.

I've trusted this dealer with my other horns before and he's done an excellent job. My advice to you is to find a vintage horn with a tone close to what you're looking for and start from there. Trust me, buying certain vintage horns and restoring them is cheaper than buying new and if it's tweaked properly, it will play better than a new horn

Just my two cents and save the difference on a pro quality mouthpiece that will give you a tone close to what you're looking for in your restored vintage tenor.

 

[jools]

"good reference books on vintage saxes?"

Try and hunt down a book called:
"The Sax And Brass Book" (ISBN 1-871547-60-1) if it's still in print. It's a great 'potted history" and although it does skim over a lot of in-depth details it will give you an idea of the 'league table' of vintage instruments.

Pretty much as freddy says... go for tone first. Read up on which saxes make the sound you like (they all have signature tones, at least the good examples do) If you just want to make a buck on doing a reno-job then go for collectible names, if you want a 'keeper' then have an open mind. You might be surprised what sounds good after a spruce up. And then, as the man says, get a good mouthpiece to match it.

 

[thomsax]

nosaxyet wrote:
I may be mad but I've decided to look for a vintage tenor sax to restore/renovate.

I'm looking for a good quality sax to use when the restoration is complete.

What should I consider and are there any good reference books on vintage saxes?

Hi.

I would like to share some of my opinions with you.

Look for a good sax to renovate. First: Inspect the toneholes, inside of the tube (it should be straight), posts, keys, neck and tenon, solderings, dents ..... . Buy the best sax you can find! Take your time.

Look for a technician who is capable of doing a complete restoration. Try to inspect and play some saxes that has been overhauled by the technician. Be active during the restoration! It's your sax and money. Choose the best supplies/parts as possible.

My advise for "Horns to look for" when it comes to playablity:

Buescher Aristrocat and 400. When it comes Aristorcrate look for a prewar sax. Lee Allen was on Buescher and later Selmer.

Conn 10M and 28M. The prewar 10M's are best. 10M's to late 50's can be good. 28M is a player and a looker! Big Jay, among others, was blowin 10M' in the 50's.

King Zephyr, Zephyr Special and Super 20. Zephyr(c 36) and King "Vol-True II " are practically the same sax. Zephyr Special (38-39) was a new construction. Super 20 (c 47-80) a legend. A player and a looker. Super 20 's sat the standard for the American jazz. Johnny Griffin(jazz, R&B), Bullmooose Jackson (R&B),Eddie Shaw (Blues) Steve Douglas (Rock) all plays(ed) on King Super 20.

Martin Comm I, II and "The Martin": Handcraft (Comm I c 34-38) or "Skyline"/"Searchlight". Some of this had solid nickel-silver keys. Soldered tonholes and thick-walled. Dark and powerful tone. Comm II (39-42) has a brighter tone comparing to the Comm I and "The Martin". Solid nickel-silver keys. Fancy engravings. "The Martin" (c 45 -70 ). Martin went back to the Comm I concept and redesigned the keys and constructed a new neck. Magna was the "top of the line" sax. Buddy Tate, JT Brown and Buddy Lucas played on Martins. Don Wise (Delbert McClinton Band) and John Fogerty is also playing on Martins.

Selmer: BA, SBA and MKVI. Great horns! MK VI sat the standard for the commercial saxophone sound.

SML: Very good horns. "Gold Medal" and "Gold Medal Two-Tone" is the models to look for.

Toneking and New King (Keilwerths) the lucite keyguards and rolled toneholes. Great saxes.

When you got a restored vintage horn, don't forget to invest in a new good case!!!


Thomas

 

[thomsax]

28M!?!? Sorry.

28M is the alto. It's should be 30M. Ian is looking fo tenors.

 

[nosaxyet]

Thanks everyone for some sound advice. Where is the best place to find said beasts? Ebay?

 

[jools]

Yeah - a decent case is a bit of a 'plus' if you want a fully authentic restoration job.

I've been lucky enough to know a few places where I could pick up some very nice cases. For a recent Conn purchase, I got a same era alto case that had come from a dealer in France. The conn sax I own came in a nasty broken down old thing, but the replacement is made of beige leather and velvet with a little badge on the front and a plaque of the Paris distributor. Very sweet.

My tenor (although it's a Beuscher) lives in a hand-stitched 1960 King black leather and red velvet case with an aluminium King badge. These things matter. Especially if you ever want to resell.

(The 50's Martins used to come in a Samsonite 'briefcase'. VERY STYLISH. I've had a couple, and as they were made for the sax - if its in good condition - they provide terrific protection as well as match the vintage)

Its wierd, but when you get into 'authenticity' its a MINEFIELD. I am always on the lookout for Brilhart products, and the going rate for a vintage LIGATURE (with the signature "B" shaped screws) can be as much as $80. !!! for a ligature!!!

 

[thomsax]

When I was in the "business" my musicians friends bought saxes for me. Two guys in USA, one in Germany, one in France and one in former Czechoslovakia. As a musician the know what a sax should be. They played, if it was possible, and inspected the sax. A good and safe way to buy. The technician I worked with here in Sweden was a former SML employed. He had worked as a garantee repairman on saxes, but also on the line, in France for over two years. When I told him that I had a SML sax on hand, he always asked for the serialnumber. We stayed out of saxes made on Mondays and "Day-After-Party" saxophones!! I have never bought a sax on sites like Ebay. I'm to old. But I look at saxes on Ebay. Ebay is more like a pornosite for me.

There are very good fullservice shops in nearly all countries. I'm not going to say which dealers/repairshops I prefer. But if you are looking for a complete saxman take a look at Peter Jessen, Copenhagen. You can buy a new vintage tenor or a G-soprano, necks, mouthpieces ... that he is building in central Copenhagen (the keys are manufactoried in another company/country). I can asure you that there is no children in the production! www.gottfried.dk/peter/

Thomas

 

[jools]

There's a 1920's vintage King for sale on Ebay at the moment (hurry - only 13 hours to go!)

Item number: 110235629384
(ebay.com.au)

QUOTE:
"As seen in the photos the sax has been dissassembled - there are no missing parts. Part of the sax has been put back onto the body with new pads and springs. A complete set of new pads is included to finish the repad job. Other items such as felts, corks and springs will be needed. The serial number (74385) dates the sax to the 1920s. There are only a couple of very minor dings in the saxophone - hardly noticeable. The finish (gold plated? not sure) is very worn as you would expect. The original case is included but is in poor condition."
UNQUOTE.

This demonstrates two things. First, here's someone that had attempted to do what you want to do and simply gave up.

Secondly, it shows the type of Ebay listing to look out for. Providing that the description is accurate and honest, this particular horn might just make a real beauty.

Although, I know you want a tenor, this listing is an example.

 

[Pete Thomas]

This is the type of thing to look out for.


You'd probably find a bit less sought after horn as more of a bargain though, I thought that one would have gone for a bit less than it did but then, it got a bit of publicity on SOTW.

 

[jools]

OOh, yes, that certainly is just the job. The finish on that is exactly like mine was. They must have gone through a phase of spray-painting down at the factory, possibly for the rock and pop market.

As various other threads of mine will describe in greater detail, a horn in that condition cleans/ strips very nicely and is well worth the effort. In doing so, it 'ups' the value -what self respecting player would want a flaky painted horn looking like that, these days? But a restored gem?... yes please.

 

[thomsax]

The Buescher 400 are really good horns. A friend of mine have a Buescher 400 from late 40's for sale. It has an ordinary oktave-key on the neck. A Berg Larsen mpc on a 400 makes the horn a real screamer.

 

[nosaxyet]

Thanks again, I am absorbing all of the advice and starting to keep an eye out. Slightly concerned about buying from the US or anywhere I cannot get to see my intended purchase first though. :?

 

[saxafonic]

be careful of the ebay thing! alot of CNC'd knock offs are being sold there. my last purchase promised everything, but when it arrived I was very depressed to see the serial number had been filed off. along with its value!! there is a lot of crap coming out of nasty little factories that are stamped and enscribed by money hungry opportunists on ebay. So be very careful and always get a serial number !!