Teaching Student choosing the teacher’s method

[eb424]

But if -- as an adult -- you want to learn sax (or anything else, for that matter), why would you have to go outside yourself for discipline?

Like it.. self motivation, 10,000 hours they say..I personally do think that if you can find someone to get you over 'stuckness' at times its great..as you said earlier teachers often want commitment..

 

[eb424]

Hi @stitch i do agree with most of what you say..but ( sorry) just because its been that way for years doesn't mean that there cant be another way surely..the grades for example are a linear path following traditional teaching methods..great if you can have 4 lessons a month..I couldn't so self teaching alongside periodic ad hoc lessons alongside bugging the cr.p out of people on here with silly questions re transposition was all i could do..I enjoy playing and learning but find doing what I can myself and going for a lesson when stuck works because its in context..i.e. the circle of fiths explains to me the importance of knowing scales..

 

[Digger2054]

IMHO if you are an adult and you've agreed objectives and approach (and price) with a teacher, you are grownup enough to stick at it and follow the process for a good chunk of time, even if you feel it's s@#t now and again and teacher doesn't give you a lollypop every week.

Why? Because grownups know that, even if you eventually decide it's not going in the direction you want and move on; a solid period of disciplined work is always of value. Always.

I don't think many adults take to being told they're wrong/rubbish/need improvement. Most haven't had such comments since being at school. My time in the Navy, it was encouraged to admit when you dropped a b*llock, learn from it, and move on, rather than try and blag it with potential serious consequences. I can take most criticism on the chin. It also helps that I share the same dry, sarcastic humour as my teacher 😉

It's also easy to believe you're playing a phrase right, only for my teacher to point out it's not quite right, and then spend more time trying to erase what I've ingrained in my mind.

 

[Pete Thomas]

If you'll open your mind to what you're reading, you'll see over and over again a version of "I got a long way doing it myself, but there were these things, and these other things, that I either had wrong, or I was doing wrong, or bad habits I got into, or these basic things I didn't understand". In other words, pride in what they've achieved DESPITE the path they followed, and acknowledgement of wasted time and effort because of it.

That does possibly describe me. I was self taught for two years, but after that got into music college so it wasn't all bad 🙂 However as I posted earlier, I didn't know the Alto was pitched in Eb, I learned all the concert pitch notes. yes that held me back in one respect but people couldn't believe how good I appeared to be at "transposing" from concert pitch lead sheets - even though I didn't think I was transposing.

What else? Oh yes I taught myself how to play altissimo by putting my teeth on the reed. (Luckily I don't profess to be a role model).

I also embraced freeform jazz and assumed after two weeks I could play as well as Ornette. Bad idea however my acceptance of free music meant I had no fear of improvising - no wrong notes! (Luckily I don't profess to be a role model).

 

[eb424]

I don't think many adults take to being told they're wrong/rubbish/need improvement. Most haven't had such comments since being at school. My time in the Navy, it was encouraged to admit when you dropped a b*llock, learn from it, and move on, rather than try and blag it with potential serious consequences. I can take most criticism on the chin. It also helps that I share the same dry, sarcastic humour as my teacher 😉

It's also easy to believe you're playing a phrase right, only for my teacher to point out it's not quite right, and then spend more time trying to erase what I've ingrained in my mind.

Think as Frank Carson would say ' it's in the way I tell em'..

 

[Jimmymack]

My experience is a bit like Pete’s except he got to go to college and I’ve continued on my own rackety path. I’ve only tried two teachers, many years apart and not felt that I was getting what I needed from either of them, one was at least a good teacher. What skills I have come from playing in many, very varied workshops which have ranged from banging through standards to free form. I’ve never noticed people being shy of telling me when I play the tune wrong. Improv I’ve made up as I went along. Scales and chords have just been learned although that was reinforced by being told to do it by Jean Toussaint at a summer school so I suppose that’s evidence of good teaching from a saxophonist. It’s probably the best advice I’ve ever had.

The one thing I feel I’ve missed is an efficient structured approach to theory and I think a music school would have helped there. I know a lot of theory but it’s all been grabbed from books and workshops and applied when the opportunity arose.

I thought I’d found a solution about a year ago, a three term course on jazz theory, hooray, but after being told by the teacher that we wouldn’t be looking at the blues because blues had nothing to do with jazz I knew I was in the wrong place.

 

[mizmar]

But if -- as an adult -- you want to learn sax (or anything else, for that matter), why would you have to go outside yourself for discipline?

I don't know. I didn't suggest someone would have to. Only, if they did, they should show some grit.

 

[Bisaxual]

"after being told by the teacher that we wouldn’t be looking at the blues because blues had nothing to do with jazz I knew I was in the wrong place."

I think your TEACHER was maybe in the wrong place.....

 

[Bisaxual]

I don't know. I didn't suggest someone would have to. Only, if they did, they should show some grit.

No, I didn't think you had said that. I'm just annoyed that people go to a teacher because they don't have the self-discipline to learn on their own. Scales are available everywhere these days; you just have to discipline yourself to learn them, if that's the direction you want to go. But I find that many people want a support-system, an inspiring coach, a hand-holder -- not a teacher with expertise in a specific field. Bottom line, though, is that the right student matches up with a teacher who can provide what the student needs/wants. But it's kind of like dating, and I'm too old for that!

 

[mizmar]

I'm just annoyed that people go to a teacher because they don't have the self-discipline to learn on their own.

Some people - most, probably, have self-discipline up to some point - and, seems to me, even many high performers as well as ordinary folk, go to a teacher or coach to have someone push them one step further (in the right direction).

 

[thomsax]

you just have to discipline yourself to learn them,

... and to use them as well. To play scales up and down was never a goal for me. To understand how I could use them was fun and useful.

 

[Pete Thomas]

To play scales up and down was never a goal for me. To understand how I could use them was fun and useful.

But surely understanding how you can use them is less useful until you can actually play them?

 

[stitch]

Hi @stitch i do agree with most of what you say..

I bowed out several posts ago - I think you're confusing me with someone else!

 

[Colin the Bear]

Dedication and discipline or OCD.

Scatterbrained approach and difficult to teach or somewhere on the Autistic spectrum.

Self taught or uncomfortable around people.

I do wonder.

 

[Dr G]

Grit…. What good is it if you don’t know what you’re doing? Try the wrong thing again with greater determination.

 

[mizmar]

Grit…. What good is it if you don’t know what you’re doing? Try the wrong thing again with greater determination.

If that was directed at my post.
If you followed the discussion and the thread title, you'd see that reply was about following what a teacher is instructing, even if one's not having a great time all the time.
HTH

 

[Woodpad]

But surely understanding how you can use them is less useful until you can actually play them?

If I was a teacher I would avoid discussion and use Carnival des animaux pianistes as an excercise.

 

[Colin the Bear]

The scale practice in TTS is useful and entertaining.

 

[thomsax]

But surely understanding how you can use them is less useful until you can actually play them?

I don't know if we are talking about the same, I'm self taught and you are the pro, but I use different scales to solve a problem (lets say playing a riff or making a solo more interesting) by find out what scale that is suitable and also how to borrow from other scales so the tones that comes out from my sax are more interesting. This is what we used and played on a Rocksax workshop covering different styles in rock. I know that you think that one or two scales shouldn't be there. All songs in concert A so it was easier to compare the different scales. I just know major, major pentatonic and blues scale but I know where to look for the other scales. I use this paper in the same way as I used the old fashioned telephone book; to solve a problem that I don't know. I never learned the telephone by heart, even if the telephone book was a thin one.

On that workshop a teacher (not a teaching player) and one of his student signed up. A teacher and his student side by side! Ain't that a great teacher? He wanted to cover his "knowledge gaps" by joining a RockSax workshop. And no prestige that he was playing and learning the same things as his discible. He discovered as well that his student played some parts better than him. There was a nice friendship between the teacher and the disciple! He was a teacher, leader and coach at the same time. My style as well when I was working as a teacher. It was a "free for all" workshop. I didn't charge anyone. Not even for the fruit, coffee, sandwich or cost for the room.

 

[eb424]

I bowed out several posts ago - I think you're confusing me with someone else!

With apologies it was @turf3