Teaching Student choosing the teacher’s method

[lydian]

I sure am glad I don’t teach anymore. The first student (or parent) who tried to dictate how I teach would be dismissed immediately. I’m the expert, not them. If that’s the way education is going, then all hope is lost.

 

[eb424]

I sure am glad I don’t teach anymore. The first student (or parent) who tried to dictate how I teach would be dismissed immediately. I’m the expert, not them. If that’s the way education is going, then all hope is lost.

Can a student not ask for help to achieve a goal...teachers can say no too i guess..

 

[Pete Thomas]

Can a student not ask for help to achieve a goal...teachers can say no too i guess..

Of course they can, although that option may be more limited in a school context where there is a fixed syllabus.

But if a student came to me and said their goal was a better sound, but that I wasn’t to ask them to do long notes or other kinds of tone or sound exercises then I would very politely explain what a door looks like and how to find it.

 

[Digger2054]

@Pete Thomas, similarly if someone said their goal was a better sound, but their timing was poor, are you better addressing that first?

A huge, fat sound, can't make up for poor timing, rhythm, articulation.

 

[Pete Thomas]

@Pete Thomas, similarly if someone said their goal was a better sound, but their timing was poor, are you better addressing that first?

A huge, fat sound, can't make up for poor timing, rhythm, articulation.

I would address it at the same time. I don't think it would be right to focus purely on just one aspect such as sound, but there is no harm in making it the most important. Good timing and rhythm cannot make up for a crap sound.

However the way I would teach sound improvement could easily incorporate timing exercises anyway because it goes way beyond just be long notes and it definitely includes articulation which is crucial to both sound and timing.

 

[eb424]

Of course they can, although that option may be more limited in a school context where there is a fixed syllabus.

But if a student came to me and said their goal was a better sound, but that I wasn’t to ask them to do long notes or other kinds of tone or sound exercises then I would very politely explain what a door looks like and how to find it.

Oh sorry was talking adults....
Do people really come and challenge teachers advice..seems pointless..

 

[eb424]

@Pete Thomas, similarly if someone said their goal was a better sound, but their timing was poor, are you better addressing that first?

A huge, fat sound, can't make up for poor timing, rhythm, articulation.

It can to baking tracks.. playing devils advocate..K.V. backing tracks aren't the same as the dots...my timing on tracks fine..dots.....will find out..

 

[Pete Thomas]

Oh sorry was talking adults....

Yes but Lydian wasn't (I assume):

The first student (or parent) who tried to dictate how I teach would be dismissed immediately.

Do people really come and challenge teachers advice..seems pointless..

I'm sure they may well do that these days.

Especially in universities where they have paid a fee, and think it entitles them to make demands about the syllabus and grading etc. I'm glad I don't do that anymore.

 

[eb424]

Yes but Lydian wasn't (I assume):




I'm sure they may well do that these days.

Especially in universities where they have paid a fee, and think it entitles them to make demands about the syllabus and grading etc. I'm glad I don't do that anymore.

Sorry missed that one...Why ask for advice...seems futile..your paying for experience..

 

[lydian]

I was talking about students of all ages. When I became an adult student myself, I did indeed tell my teacher my goals as all students should. But I never tried to dictate teaching methods. I trusted my teachers and did what they said. Worked out pretty well for me.

When you dictate how to teach, then you are now the teacher, so one of you is redundant.

 

[Pete Thomas]

.your paying for experience..

Not trying to catch you out but that is different to what your said earlier about paying for their time.

When you pay a teacher you pay more than for the one hour of lesson. You pay for one hour of lesson plus 10,000 hours of practice, study, exams, professional experience etc.

A very good friend of mine is a bricklayer but also does odd jobs. If you want him to help lift a new fence panel in place he charges £15 an hour. If you want him to build a brick wall it's £25 an hour.

 

[Bisaxual]

I sure am glad I don’t teach anymore. The first student (or parent) who tried to dictate how I teach would be dismissed immediately. I’m the expert, not them. If that’s the way education is going, then all hope is lost.

Me too....although to be clear, I never taught sax. I always understood that I was the "expert" in my field and that was why students paid money to be instructed by me. But things do change, and while everything often seems to be headed to Hell in a hand basket, I'm often delighted by what the "new guard" comes up with. Still, I'm sure glad I don't teach anymore, given my "old guard" ways of thinking!

 

[Bisaxual]

It took me 8 years to learn what a taught person would learn in two with a good teacher.

That's true for me too, but a) it ain't a race and 2) I had 6 extra years of fun figuring out stuff myself!

 

[MarkSax]

That's true for me too, but a) it ain't a race and 2) I had 6 extra years of fun figuring out stuff myself!

Yes, can’t deny the journey was fun, although when I hear myself then and now I wish I’d made it here much sooner.

 

[eb424]

Not trying to catch you out but that is different to what your said earlier about paying for their time.

When you pay a teacher you pay more than for the one hour of lesson. You pay for one hour of lesson plus 10,000 hours of practice, study, exams, professional experience etc.

A very good friend of mine is a bricklayer but also does odd jobs. If you want him to help lift a new fence panel in place he charges £15 an hour. If you want him to build a brick wall it's £25 an hour.

1/3rd of the price of lessons huh...lol..But thats where it went off track..yes i'm paying for time granted but at the moment I have a goal to achieve..Ive asked if they can accept my way of doing it until I have the songs under my belt..I take the score and my copy and backing tracks to adhoc lessons..I need to be as good as I can so am paying to hire the hall and have a brutal 2 hour assessment of 20 songs and she will come up with a plan..once I have achieved my goal I will start playing dots concentrating on rhythm etc..I just needed flexibility for now..last lesson she wanted to do some improv, she has agreed to do it around my song outros and instrumentals rather than the jazz standards she was going to do..it gives it purpose a great motivator..

 

[mizmar]

Some of these thoughts are all over the place! Adult vs kids, embouchure vs styles, whatever.

IMHO if you are an adult and you've agreed objectives and approach (and price) with a teacher, you are grownup enough to stick at it and follow the process for a good chunk of time, even if you feel it's s@#t now and again and teacher doesn't give you a lollypop every week.

Why? Because grownups know that, even if you eventually decide it's not going in the direction you want and move on; a solid period of disciplined work is always of value. Always.

 

[eb424]

Yes, can’t deny the journey was fun, although when I hear myself then and now I wish I’d made it here much sooner.

Time is time ive had ad hoc lessons along the way..Id still say I sound different now to 5 years ago..if you had a teacher 2xs a month but did nothing yourself you'd still sound how you did..dedication and love of the instrument is just as important.

 

[eb424]

Some of these thoughts are all over the place! Adult vs kids, embouchure vs styles, whatever.

IMHO if you are an adult and you've agreed objectives and approach (and price) with a teacher, you are grownup enough to stick at it and follow the process for a good chunk of time, even if you feel it's s@#t now and again and teacher doesn't give you a lollypop every week.

Why? Because grownups know that, even if you eventually decide it's not going in the direction you want and move on; a solid period of disciplined work is always of value. Always.

Amen..

 

[Bisaxual]

a solid period of disciplined work is always of value. Always.

But if -- as an adult -- you want to learn sax (or anything else, for that matter), why would you have to go outside yourself for discipline?

 

[turf3]

I was talking about students of all ages. When I became an adult student myself, I did indeed tell my teacher my goals as all students should. But I never tried to dictate teaching methods. I trusted my teachers and did what they said. Worked out pretty well for me.

When you dictate how to teach, then you are now the teacher, so one of you is redundant.

We're all different, but here's what I did when I decided in my late forties to take up the double bass, my first stringed instrument ever (except for some half-hearted experiments with an acoustic guitar in my teens).

I rented a decent student instrument with a bow, I contacted the local conservatories and asked for references for qualified instructors for an adult, but motivated student; I called a couple of the recommended people and explained who I was, what my background was, and what I wanted to get good at.

I engaged the guy who sounded most receptive. I took lessons, at first weekly, then every two weeks, for about two years, practicing assiduously. There were times when he asked me if I thought he was concentrating too little or too much on a certain aspect, and we discussed, and he adjusted. I didn't tell him HOW to teach me the bass.

After two years my life and job situation changed and I no longer had the time for the regular lessons, but I was well on my way, and I think for what I am, I'm a pretty darn decent bass player.

It is my firm opinion that the vast majority of those who set up a dozen or a hundred roadblocks to just learning music the way generations of fourth graders have, the standard pedagogy, are going to be almost always less efficient, learn more slowly, miss out whole subjects, and acquire more bad habits, than if they'd just take a deep sigh and resign themselves to learning the thing the old-fashioned way. You may THINK you're that one in a hundred thousand that "learns differently" but there's a 99,999 to one chance you aren't. The standard pedagogy is the standard pedagogy for a reason; over the past several hundred years (and whether it's the saxophone that's only 180 years old or the violin that's 400 years old, the basic principles are pretty much the same), it's been refined and developed as the most efficient way for the vast majority of learners to learn music as quickly as possible.

If you're still resisting this idea, re-read the posts here from musicians who have reached a standard of accomplishment without following the standard methodology. If you'll open your mind to what you're reading, you'll see over and over again a version of "I got a long way doing it myself, but there were these things, and these other things, that I either had wrong, or I was doing wrong, or bad habits I got into, or these basic things I didn't understand". In other words, pride in what they've achieved DESPITE the path they followed, and acknowledgement of wasted time and effort because of it.