Teaching Student choosing the teacher’s method

[lydian]

Just for clarity..if i bought my songs in to you for a lesson ( with the scores and tracks) and asked to learn to play them for a gig..would you accept..

Of course. But you wouldn’t like my methods and would quickly find a different teacher. I’m a stickler for tone and time above all else. So we’d probably work on just that for months. We’d miss that first gig. But you would sound like a pro by the end of it.

P.S. I’m far too busy with my day job and playing nights and weekends to take any students. Maybe I’ll reconsider if I need a few extra bucks when I retire. But there are already tons of far better teachers than me on YouTube and elsewhere these days. Heck, I’ll probably take some lessons myself when I have more time.

 

[turf3]

One cannot learn music from books. One can learn music from listening to recorded music. But the best way to learn music is by playing with other people.

Regarding the mechanics of producing a good sound, and reading notes (or chord progressions), in person instruction is best. Online instruction is acceptable. Books might help with the reading part, but a context is required. No way can a book teach about tone and articulation, without referring to recorded examples. This make the internet a valuable resource, as the examples can be embedded in the text.

But online study lacks the feeling that comes from melding your sound with another, whether it’s with an instructor or as part of a group.

To paraphrase Hank Hill, "Well, I tell you what."

I started playing saxophone (back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth) with few role models, and those were all on records. Well, records (or, in today's context, YouTuba videos or Zoom) aren't the same thing as real life.

I remember when I was a freshman in college, and my early mentor Larry Slezak came in to work with the big band. I heard him warming up on tenor, and it was a revelation! The depth of sound! How powerful it was, even at low dynamic levels! The vibrato, that didn't run around apologizing for being vibrato! The growls! The high notes!

It only took a few minutes for me to realize that what I had been doing, largely on my own, listening to records, sounded like an eighth grader - and a rather puny timid eighth grader - compared to what an actual live grown up professional sax player did with his air and his sound.

I just don't see how you can get a concept of real proper professional saxophone tone, without being right there in the same room experiencing it without the mediation of recording studios and signal manipulation and all that.

 

[eb424]

Of course. But you wouldn’t like my methods and would quickly find a different teacher. I’m a stickler for tone and time above all else. So we’d probably work on just that for months. We’d miss that first gig. But you would sound like a pro by the end of it.

P.S. I’m far too busy with my day job and playing nights and weekends to take any students. Maybe I’ll reconsider if I need a few extra bucks when I retire. But there are already tons of far better teachers than me on YouTube and elsewhere these days. Heck, I’ll probably take some lessons myself when I have more time.

Bit far away too tbf..It was just a theoretical one really..But why would you pay and take advice..its got to be about tone and timing surely..

 

[Bisaxual]

No arguments here! I agree entirely about the limits/impossibility of learning music ONLY from books. But that seems a fairly obvious fact. It’s a lloonnngg way from the Written in Stone advice being bantered about wildly that ALL people learning saxophone should first hire a teacher. It’s not at all a bad idea to start with a teacher, but to suggest it is essential is as wrongheaded as is trying to learn music SOLELY from books.

 

[lydian]

Bit far away too tbf..It was just a theoretical one really..But why would you pay and take advice..its got to be about tone and timing surely..

I worked out my tone and time back in the 70s. Been working ever since to play nicely crafted solos in any situation, a lifelong pursuit worthy of instruction from a true master, as was my last teacher. I still have so much to learn and so little time.

 

[lydian]

No arguments here! I agree entirely about the limits/impossibility of learning music ONLY from books. But that seems a fairly obvious fact. It’s a lloonnngg way from the Written in Stone advice being bantered about wildly that ALL people learning saxophone should first hire a teacher. It’s not at all a bad idea to start with a teacher, but to suggest it is essential is as wrongheaded as is trying to learn music SOLELY from books.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm looking forward to hearing your progress in the future. I've made my prediction.

 

[turf3]

Well, there's always a way to do stuff, but in the case of learning how to play the saxophone there's a generally accepted optimal way to go about it, proven by 180 years of saxophone instruction and 400+ years of instruction on other instruments.

No, it's not the ONLY way. But I'm too old to fiddly-dick around with suboptimal ways to do stuff. My time is valuable, is yours?

I spent a couple decades self-taught on saxophone, accumulating bad habits, and with big holes in my knowledge and skills. I decided when I took up double-bass that I wouldn't repeat that experience. Two years of the traditional method got me further on bass than twenty years on saxophone. That's my experience. You want to spend lots of time and energy flailing about trying to avoid the straightforward path - well, that's your right, of course. Just be aware that you may be going down a lot of unproductive rabbit holes rather than moving forward.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Cue theme from Watership Down.

 

[Dr G]

No arguments here! I agree entirely about the limits/impossibility of learning music ONLY from books. But that seems a fairly obvious fact. It’s a lloonnngg way from the Written in Stone advice being bantered about wildly that ALL people learning saxophone should first hire a teacher. It’s not at all a bad idea to start with a teacher, but to suggest it is essential is as wrongheaded as is trying to learn music SOLELY from books.

I look forward to you proving just how wrong we are. Please post clips of your progress.

Given a half century of musical experiences, I hope you are soon happy with your saxophone playing.

 

[Bisaxual]

OK, here’s the deal (although I think being influenced by you folks is akin to leaving the fox in charge of the hen house). I’ll see if I can find a teacher locally (I absolutely REFUSE to sit in front of a computer with my sax and someone else on the monitor….) and arrange some lessons. If, after 6 months, I’m not having any more fun playing sax than I am now, I’ll send you the bill. I’ll need your home addresses, please. And for the record, I’m very happy with my saxophone playing right now, so you’d better start saving your shekels!

 

[Dr G]

OK, here’s the deal (although I think being influenced by you folks is akin to leaving the fox in charge of the hen house). I’ll see if I can find a teacher locally (I absolutely REFUSE to sit in front of a computer with my sax and someone else on the monitor….) and arrange some lessons. If, after 6 months, I’m not having any more fun playing sax than I am now, I’ll send you the bill. I’ll need your home addresses, please. And for the record, I’m very happy with my saxophone playing right now, so you’d better start saving your shekels!

Once you start learning, you’ll only become more frustrated with what you don’t know. Quit now - you’ll never be happier than today.

I remember having a good reed a few years ago. And then it died…

(Yeah, that was sarcasm. I really do hope you find the enjoyment you seek.)

-George

 

[thomsax]

Yes, a sax teacher with a big toolbox , big enough to keep the students occupied, is always tha best way to learn how to play the saxophone. But if there is no teacher available, what to do? Books, books with CD, books with CC, books with DVD, VHS, online lessons, ... are just complements for the real thing. But it's better to learn from a less good thing than no "sax learning" at all?

I sold John Laughters books, "Rock & Roll Saxophone" and "Contempoary Saxophone".to a guy that lived way up in the north. The days were dark and long during the winter season. He had a sax and wanted to play again. I also sent him some CC with ska, reggea, blues, rock .... (backing tracks tha used to be call play alongs). After some months he posted me a CC. I was surprised how ell he had learned to play. CC player, book + CC, another CC he recorded into. It alsways the student that is going to do the job. But we all need stimuli.

 

[Pete Thomas]

It’s a lloonnngg way from the Written in Stone advice being bantered about wildly that ALL people learning saxophone should first hire a teacher.

Although it might be true that most people benefit from regular lessons, I think there are people perfect try capable of self teaching. Not in a vacuum, and purely from books. It does requite a lot of listening, trial and error (in varying proportions).

As mentioned this is what I did for two years and at that point decided to go to college. However it could just as easily have been not deciding to go to college and carrying on asa I was - ie gigging and being totally self taught. Or I might have decided to carry on without college but with regular lessons.

It's impossible to say what would have happened indifferent scenarios. I was quite driven at the time and practised 6 - 8 hours a day (2- 4 of which was long notes).

During that self teaching time I did have two lessons. One was from a well known jazz musician in London. It involved me going round to his house, him playing licks for 45 minutes then charging me enough for him to buy a bag of heroin. The other was from an established well known teacher who sold me a couple of books of music to learn and come back next week. I didn't like the music books and didn't go back.

It didn't occur to me to question either on their methods (back on topic!) I think I just assumed you didn't do that kind of thing.

 

[lydian]

There’s a big difference between weekly lessons in perpetuity and a couple of lessons up front to get you off on the right foot in terms of basics like embouchure, tonging, reed placement, etc. - all the stuff you can’t get from a book. The latter is all I’m advocating for the adult beginner. If you start off wrong, it’s very hard to fix.

As a sax player, I took 2 flute lessons, 2 clarinet lessons, 1 trumpet lesson, 2 trombone lessons, 10 piano lessons, etc. I at least get by on those instruments and get a good enough sound to play them in various bands. Those lessons on the wind instruments were critical. I probably would not have figured out the correct embouchure basics on my own. I’d have gotten close, but far from optimal. Of course more lessons would have been better, but like everybody, I have limited time and money.

Having said that, a complete musical novice will need a lot more lessons than an experienced musician in order to learn time, reading, theory, etc. But I’m still talking about the largely self-taught and self-motivated crowd. Some do indeed need weekly or monthly lessons to progress.

As an adult learning advanced improvisation on sax, I took one lesson every 6 months for a couple of years since my teacher gave me so much to work on.

 

[turf3]

...

During that self teaching time I did have two lessons. One was from a well known jazz musician in London. It involved me going round to his house, him playing licks for 45 minutes then charging me enough for him to buy a bag of heroin. The other was from an established well known teacher who sold me a couple of books of music to learn and come back next week. I didn't like the music books and didn't go back.

It didn't occur to me to question either on their methods (back on topic!) I think I just assumed you didn't do that kind of thing.

Well, those weren't what I consider "qualified instructors". And yes, there are music teachers who suck at it.

Don't engage someone like that.

 

[thomsax]

Although it might be true that most people benefit from regular lessons

Yes, that is right. Research shows that 2 x 60 min lessons/week is better than 1 x 60 min/week. Instead spreading out the lessons over 20 weeks 10 weeks is more efficient. 10 weeks saxophone lessons and then do something else that increase the creativity in another way. Tennis golf, fotballl ...... The sooner you get a repetition the better it is. Doen't matter if you are 8 or 80.

 

[Bisaxual]

Yes, that is right. Research shows that 2 x 60 min lessons/week is better than 1 x 60 min/week. The sooner you get a repetition the better it is. Doen't matter if you are 8 or 80.

Problem is, at 80 you can’t remember whether you are repeating…..

 

[BUMNOTE]

Problem is, at 80 you can’t remember whether you are repeating…..

Sorry did not quite get that....could you ...... please.

 

[thomsax]

Problem is, at 80 you can’t remember whether you are repeating…..

The hard disc is full so we must clear it out. I joined, just before the pandemic, a group of 55+ musicians, and we had lots of joy and energy. Over 20 week we were supposed to learn 4-5 songs (ensemble). To learn new things when you are 70 is possible, it's just a matter of time and the right methods

 

[lydian]

Although it might be true that most people benefit from regular lessons, I think there are people perfect try capable of self teaching. Not in a vacuum, and purely from books. It does requite a lot of listening, trial and error (in varying proportions).

As mentioned this is what I did for two years and at that point decided to go to college. However it could just as easily have been not deciding to go to college and carrying on asa I was - ie gigging and being totally self taught. Or I might have decided to carry on without college but with regular lessons.

It's impossible to say what would have happened indifferent scenarios. I was quite driven at the time and practised 6 - 8 hours a day (2- 4 of which was long notes).

During that self teaching time I did have two lessons. One was from a well known jazz musician in London. It involved me going round to his house, him playing licks for 45 minutes then charging me enough for him to buy a bag of heroin. The other was from an established well known teacher who sold me a couple of books of music to learn and come back next week. I didn't like the music books and didn't go back.

It didn't occur to me to question either on their methods (back on topic!) I think I just assumed you didn't do that kind of thing.

That's unfortunate. Yes, I've had some terrible teachers as well as some really fantastic ones.

What if back then you told each of those teachers how to teach? Would it have made any difference? Probably not. That's where you cut your losses, as you did, and move on.