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Shellac or Hot Glue for pads?

jbtsax

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@jbtsax - I understand that, but you mentioned also: "Sometimes it helps to bend the arm with the "U" very slightly to get the best result."
Sorry I misunderstood your question. I didn't mean to sound patronizing. Sometimes the "U" joint fitting is snug when the key is open, but has some play when it is closed or vice versa. By tilting the "U" either toward or away from the key can often make the fit snug at both locations. It has to do with the geometry of the interface between the two parts. Stephen Howard says that he sometimes files one arm of the "U" to make it slanted to accomplish the same thing. Let me know if this is not clear and I will draw a schematic when I get the time. It will help me to review the concept as well.
 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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@jbt - no, that's fine, thanks.

I was just trying out the "guinea pig" horn again today. Comparing it (Yamaha Vito alto) to a Jericho J6 I have, for tone, keywork, etc.
Going back and forth between them I was reminded what @Stephen Howard often says about his Yamaha 23 - they really are excellent.
Although the J6 is minty and has more modern keywork I can't help but prefer the slightly beaten up Vito. I'm thinking ahead to how much better still it'll be once it's little issues are sorted out. And the great thing is that it cost nothing, so who cares if I mess up?
How did it cost nothing? Well, the price I paid will be covered by selling the Vandoren MP and other goodies which came with it.

However, whilst playing the Vito I noticed another "clicking" noise when coming off the left hand B key. Looking at what was happening, the front F was flying up on the B's rebound. Hmm... what's causing that? Couldn't see at first, so pulled out a YAS-275 (see Yardsale!) and compared them...

Can you see what it is yet? Vito top photo...





I guess I would have worked it out eventually, but always helpful to have "one I played earlier" to hand to see how it should be!

So, that missing cork will be replaced when I'm reassembling the Vito. I guess I should play it a little more to make sure I spot ALL the defects before stripping it down.

Anyway... playing the Jericho again, I noticed a clicking noise coming from the G#/bis rod where the lever was coming up and smacking the adjustment material - some kind of hard plastic. The lever is shown to the right of this example photo (right adjuster removed)...



To prove it was this clicking, I inserted a piece of paper between lever and hard plastic and it was muted. So... how to I overcome this percussive sound when these two interact? Any suggestions?

Matt Stohrer (photo above from his video) recommends doming these adjusters, but that's more for making sure the adjustment is correct, not to stop any noise. Here's his video:

View: https://youtu.be/cPlai6kmcYQ?t=35


I know I keep finding issues with the Vito, which I was only using to try pad replacement but... oh WAIT... just remembered, the neck is loose too! Neck screw tightened I can still easily turn the neck. Now I've seen a solution to this somewhere... it's either something to do with the screw thread or it needs the body clamp closing (hammer... pipe wrench?) or neck tenon opening (mandrel I guess). No worries, Matt at Sheward-MIR can sort it no doubt. Unless you have an easy fix to try first?

Always useful to find an informed DIY solution than immediately give a horn to to a tech I think. Then you can have practical experience and add to your home sax repair knowledge.

It's very satisfying too... mostly!
 

jbtsax

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I'm not sure what material Jerico uses in the Bis/G# adjusting screws. Nylon perhaps?? If it is possible to remove that and replace it with a small section cut out of a rubber "O-ring" you would have a good silencing material. If you have a means of putting a "dome" on it even better. When I was doing band director DIY repairs years ago, an electric drill clamped in a vice was my "bench motor". Other than not having a hollow shaft for long steel rods, it was adequate for many tasks. An emery board works well to put a dome shape on a material extending from a spinning adjustment screw.

There are lots of bad solutions to fix a loose neck that can cause permanent damage to the receiver. The only way to repair a loose neck is to expand the male tenon to a proper fit. There are no shortcuts here.
 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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Thanks chaps. I'll likely strip the Vito down at the weekend, measure up for any dodgy pads (inside the cup edges with a digital vernier), order what I need, take the bare bones over to Matt (Sheward, not Stohrer) for dents and the neck next week, and start re-assembling and fixing things in a few weeks when it's back.

Meanwhile I'll have a closer look at the adjustment material on the J6 - it looks like clear-ish nylon - and fashion something else.
@jbt - you suggested cork here?: Technical - Seized adjustment screw....
Is rubber better?

WARNING: Do not scroll down to post #12 on the linked to thread if of a prudish nature.
 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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OK, stripped the Vito down. 5 pads to be changed (some of those remaining, with a darker resonator, have been changed already)...





I make the sizes:



By measuring to the inner edge of the cup sides:

 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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Actually, reading Steve and Kev's posts about hot glue I may just use that this time instead of shellac. Just the one large pad which I'm sure will succumb to this method too.

I also thought about photographing the existing pads in profile before taking them out, so as to give an idea of how much they protrude but they're all pretty much identical.
 

jbtsax

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I use very much the same technique with a few minor differences. I "paint" the outer circumference of the back of the pad where the leather is folded over first and then flatten that on the jeweler's block. Then I fill in the center. I do not put more than one layer of shellac over the back of the pad with the exception of putting just a tad more in the center. A business card measures about .3mm thickness. In the video a thicker layer of shellac than that is applied to the pad---perhaps twice that much. The only time I would use as much shellac as shown in the video would be if I am installing .165 pads in a sax that originally came with .185 pads.

The only other difference I can think of is that the tech makes his own shellac sticks by melting Ferree's shellac flakes. It is supposed to be exactly the same as the sticks you buy from Ferree's but a lot cheaper. I tried that and found that the shellac made that way behaves differently than the type that already comes in sticks. I estimate that I typically use 1/2 of a stick of shellac which costs $12 a stick for a repad making my cost $6 out of a $600 - $800 repad/overhaul. I will gladly pay that extra amount to use a material I am used to working with.

One last thought. . . . I clean all of the old adhesive out of the key cups and then put some cross wise scratches in the surface using a sharp scraping tool. I have found that the shellac adheres to a slightly rough surface better than a smooth one.

pad shellac.jpg
 

jbtsax

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I'm not sure how much of Music Medic's tips you have read., but I recommend all of them. Two of my favorites are to "dry fit" pads without any shellac to get a feel for how much shellac to use to make the right thickness, and the "tappy tap" method of seating pads where you heat the key cup and repeatedly tap the key closed encouraging the pad to seek its own level.

If you are going to get serious about pad replacement, I suggest you invest in a set of Pad Leveling Rings. I honestly don't know how I ever installed pads without them. If and when you get a set let me know and I will share some tips and tricks with you.
 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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I still prefer tech cork, but that involves having a sufficiently thick sheet of material and a set of good punches. My advice to use a small section of a rubber O-ring was made because it is more available and less expensive.
Now sorted with cork hand cut and fettled to fit the adjuster cups. Glued in then sanded to a dome. Re-adjusted. Done!

Also sorted the Vito's neck - oiled neck screw thread then exerted a tiny bit more force than normal with the neck removed. Checked neck fit, repeated, neck now held tight by hand tightening neck screw. I think the thread was so dry it was causing enough friction to hold back the full force of the screw. Done!

Off to Matt tomorrow for the dent work...
 

jbtsax

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Over tightening the neck screw and bringing the sides of the slot closer together can produce a leak at the bottom of the slot by forming a "bubble". This is common on Bundy II's especially. I would still have the neck professionally fit if you can afford it. Hopefully the tech you use will have a "neck leak isolator" to test the neck for leaks.
 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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Yes Matt can do that while he has the Vito. I had it in mind but it was such a tiny degree of movement, perhaps 1/16 of a turn of the neck screw, I'm sure it hasn't had any ill effect. If it had taken any more I would have stopped for fear of noticeably closing the gap.

Neck leak isolator... an expanding sealing tool which sits just below the neck joint to seal it, iirc?
 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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I happened to speak to Alastair Hanson yesterday. Always a fascinating chap to speak to. He advised that the most success his trainee techs have with pads is when using a hot air soldering station, such as: Vortex Air Torch

But... told me to buy one off ebay for £30. Search 858D.
Anyone used one?
 

JayeNM

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I invested in the MusicMedic version when they first came out. Everybody was hot for 'em (ba-dump-bump).

Used it on around 3 horns then basically went back to my open-flame torch.

Keep in mind, this may well have been b/c I had gotten used to a flame torch over many years and the air torch is a different animal; perhaps had I made it to horn #5 I would have acclimated to the tool more.
I have a good tech friend who switched to air torch after 18 years of flame, and he still raves about it. I also have 2 other tech friends who, like me, now have an interesting piece of hardware sitting on the corner of their bench, unused.


Biggest advantage is no chance in burning pearls or lacquer (subsequently little chance of accidentally burning nearby corks). For me, I just found that visually speaking, it was way more efficient/comfy to SEE where I was placing the heat (i.e. see the flame tip).

If they are that cheap used, in UK (MusicMedic in US sells new ones for $135usd), you might wanna give it a try. As you are new at this and have not acclimated to a flame torch yet, and are OK with spending some money on something which may or may not suit you - for the sake of trying it - you may find it to your liking.
 
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DavidUK

DavidUK

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I saw your similar posts on SOTW Jaye, and other techs, and I agree that with your years of using a flame you'd likely stick to that method. The interest to me was that Alastair was saying that for inexperienced newbies to the padding world, the hot air station gave them most success. He was really pushing me to use one, with hot glue, not shellac.
 

MandyH

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My sax tech can't stand shellac!

He has just replaced the G# pad on my 2 year old alto because he couldn't get it to seal properly because of the shellac that was used in manufacture.
I have no idea what he does use, but I know he has mentioned his dislike of shellac before.
 
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