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Theory & Impro Practicing Improvisation

skeller047

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I’ve seen some questions both here and on Voldemort’s Site (the VS forum…) about practicing improvisation. There is a kind of dichotomy...
  • Some people feel that improvised music should be free from pre-conceived ideas and be spontaneous, in-the moment.
  • Others feel that practicing licks and patterns (“all 12 keys!”) and doing transcribing is very important and is key to successful improvisation.
Not being fond of dichotomies, I am firmly in both camps. I am jazz focused, but these principles are the same in any genre of music. So I thought I’d share a little of my approach, what I’ve been focusing on this year.

So first off, I do practice improvising. Sometimes I use a backing of some sort, or maybe I use a metronome (swing, clicks on 2 and 4). But most of the time I just try to keep time internally, and listen for the harmony. I would say that improv practice is about 2/3 of my practice time, the other third being some kind of technical study (patterns and licks, sometimes scales, always a bit of time with long tones).

But what do I practice? It depends, partly on the tune I’m working on, partly on my mood of the moment. For a hard tune - I’m revisiting Moment’s Notice for a while, as I got my ass handed to me a couple weeks ago - I will take a lick or pattern and try to fit it in everywhere. Since this tune is full of ii-V’s, I just take a simple idea - for example, for Dm7-G7 I might play D-F-A-C-B, all eighth notes - and play it everywhere possible. In a given session I might do 2 or 3 patterns, and if I’m successful, the next time I practice I’ll choose others.

Moment’s Notice, I’ve spent 3 days on a single pattern, mostly because of the other thing I’m working on, which is to really get a handle on the structure of the piece. Plus it’s a hard tune that doesn’t follow a very standard progression. There is a larger pattern, sort of, but it took me a while to get it. Because I’m old and slow…

Structure or form is important in most improvised music today. In other words, regardless of what you play, you have to know where you are in the form. So I have found it helps me to have a bigger picture of the whole tune. On a simple tune, like a blues, the form is well known - 3 sections, the first two often similar, and a third. Statement, restatement, answer. This is how lyrics to blues are often structured, and great blues solos often follow it. Tunes like Moment’s Notice have many more complex sections, and often a larger overall structure.

So after I work on a pattern or 3 for a tune, I will also spend some time just playing over it, following the larger structures but not trying to be perfect. And really working on playing stylistically, and melodically, and thematically. If I don’t sweat a little by the end I didn’t do it right.

These last couple of weeks, I have spent between 15 and 20 minutes a day working on Moment’s Notice, and maybe another half hour or so on some other tunes - tunes I know well, tunes I haven’t played for a long time, tunes that came up at a jam recently, new tunes I heard somewhere, you get the idea. Usually 3 or 4 tunes. I try to be different each day, but there are some favorites I have - and I always play at least one blues. New tunes to me I’ll keep in rotation for a week or two. Note that Moment’s Notice will likely be in rotation for another 3 or 4 weeks. I thought I knew that tune, I learned it decades ago, but I was wrong. This might be Trane’s most compicated tune, from a structural standpoint.

Technical practice is sometimes informed by something from my improv practice. For example, a few weeks ago I played Bessie’s Blues in my practice as a warm up, and came up with a descending line of major triads, moving down by whole steps, going from the I to the IV. So going from Eb to Ab in the 3rd and 4th bar, I played major triads in eighth notes - Eb-Db | B-A | landing on Ab in the 5th bar.

That became an exercise I ran in all 12 keys, and while I did get a bit of speed over a couple weeks, I still often stumble on the first iteration and thus I repeat the exercise 8-16 times in each key, striving for relaxation, good tone, efficient fingering and just “feeling right”. My eventual goal is to be able to do it once per key, sequencing through all 12 keys, and through a full range of the horn (though this particular pattern is wide enough that for most iterations there is only one place to play it).

Well that’s quite enough for one post. I welcome comments, flames and thoughts. And maybe we’ll get to read some other interesting techniques of practicing improvisation.
 
That became an exercise I ran in all 12 keys, and while I did get a bit of speed over a couple weeks, I still often stumble on the first iteration and thus I repeat the exercise 8-16 times in each key, striving for relaxation, good tone, efficient fingering and just “feeling right”. My eventual goal is to be able to do it once per key, sequencing through all 12 keys, and through a full range of the horn (though this particular pattern is wide enough that for most iterations there is only one place to play it).
There is a lot of what you say that strikes a nerve, one of them the In-the-moment thing which was the main reason for me to get fired/quit the band I was in. In short, the fearless leader insisted on improvisation during practice and when I told him that I probably will never play the same "improv" twice - it caused some friction LOL. Easy for him, his guitar noodling was ultimately predictable and boring and I may have mentioned something about it.

But back to the quote, do you ever experience (like I do) trying to keep up with the tempo and no matter how fast you are trying to play you always seem to lag until you slow down and all of a sudden you are "in time"? It is one of the things that often stump me. The faster I try to play, the more I lag but when I slow down, I sync up perfectly.
 
I’ve seen some questions both here and on Voldemort’s Site (the VS forum…) about practicing improvisation. There is a kind of dichotomy...
Really interesting post on your practice 'routine'; sort of similar to mine which is encouraging. Its good to know how others tackle practicing as it is an area that is very much left up to the musician to deal with as far as I can see. We are either told by teachers what to practice or we know ourselves, but actually managing the practice sessions is something else.
 
I am learning to improvise with my teacher.

A lesson usually ends with "go away and p**s around"

It's not aimless noodling, but taking nuggets of information, what chord tones sound right, voice leading, how to navigate through chords. Of course Rhythm 1st, and less is sometimes more.

Alongside that as well, if there's a 'lick' I like, suss out why. What's happening, why do I like it, and then try different keys, tweak it, invert it, mess about with it.

At the moment, I'm working on shifting away from the root notes, and making use of the 3rd & 7th.
 
Read, memorize and study, the music from Bach thru Mozart.
A theme and variations.
Take a phrase you like, and create/practice variations.
Write a new melody, over your favorite changes, and earn a spot, on the big kids porch.
Jazz wise, your mind will never be broke, if you've been Baroque.
Clever thieves, are some pianists, why?
 
@skeller047 Thanks for an interesting post. My practice is structured:
- tones because, well, tones
- scales and arpeggios in a different key each day
- tunes and improvisation
Roughly 1/3 of the session on each.

For improvisation I do some prep in "the key of the day". I've put together four tracks in iRealPro: a minor vamp, where I play in Dorian mode; blues; major 2-5-1; minor 2-5-1 where I play mostly in harmonic minor. The thinking here is to do something foundational, namely train my ears and fingers so that I can play, for instance a Dorian minor whenever I feel like it (fingers) and I know what it will sound like (ears). iRealPro lets me change keys easily from day to day but Each track repeats so if I play something I don't like I can try it again on the next repeat. Maybe you'd call it mindful noodling?

Then on to tune(s) of the day. Lately I'm working on Estate. In particular the B section, which has a sequence of several ii-Vs which are pretty and challenging. I'm trying to find a line that fits over those cadences. I start with the root, then the chord tones, and then some melodic line starting with a few notes of a scale. In this case, I have written in (what I think is) the tone center to help me keep track. In the B section of Estate the tone center shifts a lot. For tenor: Ab Db F Eb E A. If I've got that wrong, please advise!

So it's focus on one tune but then run thru a couple others to keep them current.
 
Lately I'm working on Estate. In particular the B section, which has a sequence of several ii-Vs which are pretty and challenging. I'm trying to find a line that fits over those cadences. I start with the root, then the chord tones, and then some melodic line starting with a few notes of a scale. In this case, I have written in (what I think is) the tone center to help me keep track. In the B section of Estate the tone center shifts a lot. For tenor: Ab Db F Eb E A. If I've got that wrong, please advise!
Seems like you’re playing it in B minor? There are a lot of kind of ambiguous transitions in that bridge - first B major (C#/Db for tenor), then shifts to Eb minor (F minor), then to G major (A), then back to B minor, though it might sound ambiguous because our ear remembers B major. And the part in Eb minor could be analyzed as staying in B major, as Eb minor is also D# minor, the iii of B major. And the melody of the tune uses a lot of notes from B major. More ambiguity…. Which is part of what makes it so beautiful.

A lot of the ii-V’s function like secondary dominants, I like to think in bigger sections rather than changing keys every time I see a secondary dominant. Love to discuss this in more detail, maybe we should do a thread on the tune 🙂

And thanks for the reminder of this tune, I haven’t played it in over a year. Maybe tomorrow 🙂
 
Yes, B minor concert, Db for tenor.

I'm going to read what you wrote carefully and then employ it in my practice on Estate. Confession: I had to look up "secondary dominants" 🙂 So, this is a learning opportunity for me. Who knows, maybe I'll have to post a recording when it's ready. Could be years, tho!

Estate was Song of the Month in December 2016, so there's already a thread on it. In that thread are links to several versions. I totally love Scott Hamilton's.

Yes, "think in bigger sections" sounds like a good strategy. Somehow I think of a slalom...passing all the gates, closely, but not hitting any of them.

This tune is truly subtle, which makes it all the more challenging and interesting and, as you say, just so beautiful.
 
My answer when asked, "what mode are you using/thinking of, when you improvised on that tune?"
My reply, "I only think of two modes.
The melody mode, and pie a la mode."
Didn't happen overnight, but memorizing everything, is a start. 🎶🏴‍☠️🎶
Did I mention Classical music, their associated Etudes? 🎯
 
I’ve been playing Estate for the last 3 days, and also doing some research on the tune. The composer is Bruno Martino, who did the first recording of it. He wrote and sang it in D minor. Then Joao Gilberto did a very well-known version, in B minor. That’s the recording that put the tune on the jazz map. Wikipedia also notes versions in other keys.

As I often do for tunes I’m working on, I made a playlist of several versions. Bruno Martino, Gilberto, Eliane Elias, Chris Botti and Chet Baker. All so different. Baker and Gilberto have the darkest, moodiest versions, they are in B minor. Botti and Elias have elaborate arrangements, and both change keys during them, even though Botti returns to B minor at the end. Martino’s is of course in D minor.

I also am playing the tune in both B minor and D minor. I notice I think and play quite differently in the different keys. This is good as something that strikes my ear in one key can be moved to the other version. It’s a nice way to get more familiar with the possibilities.

Thanks again for reminding me of this beautiful song, @hedgehog I’m digging it a lot!
 
Likewise, playing it every day, although it's not ready for recording. (For what it's worth I use the dots and backing track from Jazzbacks.)

Regarding the key change in the bridge, I'm still trying to figure that out. It seems less moody, brighter, so I'm currently thinking B major.
 
...

But back to the quote, do you ever experience (like I do) trying to keep up with the tempo and no matter how fast you are trying to play you always seem to lag until you slow down and all of a sudden you are "in time"? It is one of the things that often stump me. The faster I try to play, the more I lag but when I slow down, I sync up perfectly.
That's a tension matter. The hurrieder I get, the behinder I become .
 
Hmm... my response to this this thread reminds me of the old 'I know my place' sketch by John Cleese, Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbet. And (as an amatuer) I feel like Ronnie Corbet who 'knows his place'.

I have participated in 5 bi-annual 10-week (weekly) 'improvisation workshops', Three on tenor sax and 2 on bass guitar. During which the 'basic principles of improvisation' were taught and practiced by 'relative beginners' on a variety of instruments. And I have a couple of improvised solos in 2 amatur bands that I play in. So I know some basic principles and have some (amateur) experience at improvising.

But ...
- I don't understand (and have never been motivated to learn) much theory about 'modes', etc
- My guiding principle has always been that 'amateur audiences' always need to relate
'improvised solos' to the tune being played (through phrasing, rythme, melodic patterns, etc.)
- My 'sax techique'(speed, runs, lip slurs, etc.) is awful; so I try to compensate with more 'melodic, expressive' solos

FWIW, I don't much practice improvised solos at home. I do prepare for solos in working out the tenor sax scales (often from the piano or guitar chords). But I tend let my 'improvised solos' evolve during rehearsals. I'll try things out. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

After a couple of rehearsals, I usually have a 'solid basis for any improvised solos. I always prefer to 'improvise in the moment', But these are always based on my 'solid basis'. FWIW, a 'solid basis' can (at a minimum) juat consist of:
- the first couple of notes that you're intending to play (to get off to a good start!)
- the scales that (with phrasing) you're intending to improvise on
- the way (notes, timing) you want to 'close out' your solo

Some 'problems' I've (IMHO) found with some beginning amateur soloists:
- they want to show off their 'dazzling technique' at the cost of (for an amateur audience), their 'musicality'
- they 'fill the space' with notes so that (for an amateur audience) there's little structure or relation to 'the tune'

Both 'problems' are (IMHO) related. And both show an ego-centric approach to playing solos for an (amateur) audience.

So my personal motto w.r.t. improv in (amateur) performances is usually 'Less is more"
 
This is a very interesting video. Chris Potter makes the point that the best way to learn a language is by osmosis, and that’s pretty much how he works on stuff even today. Listening and fooling around. That’s how I learned as a kid, maybe I should do it more 🙂
View: https://youtu.be/LbLrCODsqMU
Did you even have any other options? I remember the days when sheet music was essentially unaffordable, internet/ Youtube/streaming media did not exist and if you were lucky, the owner of a record store let you listen to some of the vinyls without forcing you to buy them. So you had to kind of absorb the stuff on the fly.

After actually buying an online course, which helped for understanding a few things that I've been glossing over for, er, for ever, I started going back to "osmosis" myself and, shame on me, that's also where a lot of the AI-generated sax tracks have come in very handy. Monkey hear, monkey do! 80% of it is garbagy but I hear phrases and repeat them by playing along and despite my currently extremely limited time this kind of "ear training" has really made a big difference, at least for me.

Ok I know, AI ... shame on you! But instead of trying to find the little nuggets within hundreds of real recordings, I can pick a style and get 2 hours worth of stuff that I hate because it is artificial but at the same time, I wish I could play.

And then listening to some real artists again and recognizing the source of the AI material but actually being able to emulate what I hear. And it would have been much harder if I had not heard 20 different variations of the same.
 
Did you even have any other options? I remember the days when sheet music was essentially unaffordable, internet/ Youtube/streaming media did not exist and if you were lucky, the owner of a record store let you listen to some of the vinyls without forcing you to buy them. So you had to kind of absorb the stuff on the fly.

After actually buying an online course, which helped for understanding a few things that I've been glossing over for, er, for ever, I started going back to "osmosis" myself and, shame on me, that's also where a lot of the AI-generated sax tracks have come in very handy. Monkey hear, monkey do! 80% of it is garbagy but I hear phrases and repeat them by playing along and despite my currently extremely limited time this kind of "ear training" has really made a big difference, at least for me.

Ok I know, AI ... shame on you! But instead of trying to find the little nuggets within hundreds of real recordings, I can pick a style and get 2 hours worth of stuff that I hate because it is artificial but at the same time, I wish I could play.

And then listening to some real artists again and recognizing the source of the AI material but actually being able to emulate what I hear. And it would have been much harder if I had not heard 20 different variations of the same.
When I was 15, I copied, by hand (!), a fakebook that was assembled by a friend who was ahead of me in school. Actually, he had graduated and was attending college, but we still interacted from time to time. When the Real Book came out a few years later (I got mine at a bar, the bartender kept them under the counter), it was a godsend. Later, Kinko’s got started, so we could copy stuff more easily.

I have mixed feelings about the “digification” of things that were previously ephemera. When working on a new-to-me tune nowadays, I will create a playlist of 3-5+ recordings, often in different keys, and play along with it. This helps get the melody attached to my neurons…. At the same time, AI music and art is often dissatisfying, similar to the way that stevia tastes instead of sugar. And don’t get me started on the de-valuation of art and artists because of the accessability and, frankly, theft, that digitizing makes easy.

I think your use of AI is fine. You are using it as it was intended, a tool that provides you with a level of efficiency you would not otherwise have. I think AI is a wonderful invention, it’s just so powerful that there are dangers associated with it. Kind of like fusion - or the H-bomb…
 
When I was 15, I copied, by hand (!), a fakebook that was assembled by a friend who was ahead of me in school. Actually, he had graduated and was attending college, but we still interacted from time to time. When the Real Book came out a few years later (I got mine at a bar, the bartender kept them under the counter), it was a godsend. Later, Kinko’s got started, so we could copy stuff more easily.

I have mixed feelings about the “digification” of things that were previously ephemera. When working on a new-to-me tune nowadays, I will create a playlist of 3-5+ recordings, often in different keys, and play along with it. This helps get the melody attached to my neurons…. At the same time, AI music and art is often dissatisfying, similar to the way that stevia tastes instead of sugar. And don’t get me started on the de-valuation of art and artists because of the accessability and, frankly, theft, that digitizing makes easy.

I think your use of AI is fine. You are using it as it was intended, a tool that provides you with a level of efficiency you would not otherwise have. I think AI is a wonderful invention, it’s just so powerful that there are dangers associated with it. Kind of like fusion - or the H-bomb…
Ok, I love stevia and I hate the smell of sugar. This is a personal thing, after living in NY/NJ in an old brownstone where the landlord had rented out the basement to a Chinese couple with, er, somewhat less than hygienic habits, i.e. throwing food leftovers out the window and other, similar stuff, the house became a roach magnet. And roaches love sugar. And they smell like sugar and eventually, sugar smells like roaches.
When you walk into the kitchen at night and turn on the light and the walls start moving, 500 cockroaches running for cover. You turn on the microwave and when you look inside, you see that cockroaches are immune to the waves and they are feasting.

But I never saw a roach eat stevia.

Sorry about the digression ...

But I have the same approach to learning a new tune, Eb, F, G or whatever, what matters is the starting note and the rest is just intervals.

Digification, I first read dignification ...

As to the rest of your post: "ditto"
 
When I was 15, I copied, by hand (!), a fakebook that was assembled by a friend who was ahead of me in school. Actually, he had graduated and was attending college, but we still interacted from time to time. When the Real Book came out a few years later (I got mine at a bar, the bartender kept them under the counter), it was a godsend. Later, Kinko’s got started, so we could copy stuff more easily.

I have mixed feelings about the “digification” of things that were previously ephemera. When working on a new-to-me tune nowadays, I will create a playlist of 3-5+ recordings, often in different keys, and play along with it. This helps get the melody attached to my neurons…. At the same time, AI music and art is often dissatisfying, similar to the way that stevia tastes instead of sugar. And don’t get me started on the de-valuation of art and artists because of the accessability and, frankly, theft, that digitizing makes easy.

I think your use of AI is fine. You are using it as it was intended, a tool that provides you with a level of efficiency you would not otherwise have. I think AI is a wonderful invention, it’s just so powerful that there are dangers associated with it. Kind of like fusion - or the H-bomb…
Haha, your post reminds of my student days (1973- 1976) as an amatuer guitarist. Long before the days of 'internet. And I couldn't afford 'music books'. So I 'taped' borrowed LP's of anything I wanted to learn to play. And I played them over and over again) until I'd figured out the chords and solos that I wanted to learn.

One thing I still remember: I had a - then - girlfriend who loved to sing songs by Leonard Cohen. She would also love it if I would accompany her on guitar. For non-guitarists this meant (from tape) not only figuring out the chords but also the 'finger-picking patterns' and the intermediate 'guitar riffs/solos. This meant (for me) a whole lot of 'tape playing, stopping, rewinding and re-playing'.

Things are thankfully just so, so, much easier these days :yess: !
 
Haha, your post reminds of my student days (1973- 1976) as an amatuer guitarist. Long before the days of 'internet. And I couldn't afford 'music books'. So I 'taped' borrowed LP's of anything I wanted to learn to play. And I played them over and over again) until I'd figured out the chords and solos that I wanted to learn.

One thing I still remember: I had a - then - girlfriend who loved to sing songs by Leonard Cohen. She would also love it if I would accompany her on guitar. For non-guitarists this meant (from tape) not only figuring out the chords but also the 'finger-picking patterns' and the intermediate 'guitar riffs/solos. This meant (for me) a whole lot of 'tape playing, stopping, rewinding and re-playing'.

Things are thankfully just so, so, much easier these days :yess: !
Yep. Vinyls made the rounds and cassette decks were all the rage.

I remember hanging out at the local river / public "beach" and some distant friend walking by with a cassette "not so much boom box" playing a song from a Golden Earring album. And I said to him Oh, I have that record. And he looks at me and says: Oh I borrowed it from my friend Otto, who, I think, borrowed it from you....
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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