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CafeSaxophone Forum
Theory & Impro Practicing Improvisation
I’ve seen some questions both here and on Voldemort’s Site (the VS forum…) about practicing improvisation. There is a kind of dichotomy...
So first off, I do practice improvising. Sometimes I use a backing of some sort, or maybe I use a metronome (swing, clicks on 2 and 4). But most of the time I just try to keep time internally, and listen for the harmony. I would say that improv practice is about 2/3 of my practice time, the other third being some kind of technical study (patterns and licks, sometimes scales, always a bit of time with long tones).
But what do I practice? It depends, partly on the tune I’m working on, partly on my mood of the moment. For a hard tune - I’m revisiting Moment’s Notice for a while, as I got my ass handed to me a couple weeks ago - I will take a lick or pattern and try to fit it in everywhere. Since this tune is full of ii-V’s, I just take a simple idea - for example, for Dm7-G7 I might play D-F-A-C-B, all eighth notes - and play it everywhere possible. In a given session I might do 2 or 3 patterns, and if I’m successful, the next time I practice I’ll choose others.
Moment’s Notice, I’ve spent 3 days on a single pattern, mostly because of the other thing I’m working on, which is to really get a handle on the structure of the piece. Plus it’s a hard tune that doesn’t follow a very standard progression. There is a larger pattern, sort of, but it took me a while to get it. Because I’m old and slow…
Structure or form is important in most improvised music today. In other words, regardless of what you play, you have to know where you are in the form. So I have found it helps me to have a bigger picture of the whole tune. On a simple tune, like a blues, the form is well known - 3 sections, the first two often similar, and a third. Statement, restatement, answer. This is how lyrics to blues are often structured, and great blues solos often follow it. Tunes like Moment’s Notice have many more complex sections, and often a larger overall structure.
So after I work on a pattern or 3 for a tune, I will also spend some time just playing over it, following the larger structures but not trying to be perfect. And really working on playing stylistically, and melodically, and thematically. If I don’t sweat a little by the end I didn’t do it right.
These last couple of weeks, I have spent between 15 and 20 minutes a day working on Moment’s Notice, and maybe another half hour or so on some other tunes - tunes I know well, tunes I haven’t played for a long time, tunes that came up at a jam recently, new tunes I heard somewhere, you get the idea. Usually 3 or 4 tunes. I try to be different each day, but there are some favorites I have - and I always play at least one blues. New tunes to me I’ll keep in rotation for a week or two. Note that Moment’s Notice will likely be in rotation for another 3 or 4 weeks. I thought I knew that tune, I learned it decades ago, but I was wrong. This might be Trane’s most compicated tune, from a structural standpoint.
Technical practice is sometimes informed by something from my improv practice. For example, a few weeks ago I played Bessie’s Blues in my practice as a warm up, and came up with a descending line of major triads, moving down by whole steps, going from the I to the IV. So going from Eb to Ab in the 3rd and 4th bar, I played major triads in eighth notes - Eb-Db | B-A | landing on Ab in the 5th bar.
That became an exercise I ran in all 12 keys, and while I did get a bit of speed over a couple weeks, I still often stumble on the first iteration and thus I repeat the exercise 8-16 times in each key, striving for relaxation, good tone, efficient fingering and just “feeling right”. My eventual goal is to be able to do it once per key, sequencing through all 12 keys, and through a full range of the horn (though this particular pattern is wide enough that for most iterations there is only one place to play it).
Well that’s quite enough for one post. I welcome comments, flames and thoughts. And maybe we’ll get to read some other interesting techniques of practicing improvisation.
- Some people feel that improvised music should be free from pre-conceived ideas and be spontaneous, in-the moment.
- Others feel that practicing licks and patterns (“all 12 keys!”) and doing transcribing is very important and is key to successful improvisation.
So first off, I do practice improvising. Sometimes I use a backing of some sort, or maybe I use a metronome (swing, clicks on 2 and 4). But most of the time I just try to keep time internally, and listen for the harmony. I would say that improv practice is about 2/3 of my practice time, the other third being some kind of technical study (patterns and licks, sometimes scales, always a bit of time with long tones).
But what do I practice? It depends, partly on the tune I’m working on, partly on my mood of the moment. For a hard tune - I’m revisiting Moment’s Notice for a while, as I got my ass handed to me a couple weeks ago - I will take a lick or pattern and try to fit it in everywhere. Since this tune is full of ii-V’s, I just take a simple idea - for example, for Dm7-G7 I might play D-F-A-C-B, all eighth notes - and play it everywhere possible. In a given session I might do 2 or 3 patterns, and if I’m successful, the next time I practice I’ll choose others.
Moment’s Notice, I’ve spent 3 days on a single pattern, mostly because of the other thing I’m working on, which is to really get a handle on the structure of the piece. Plus it’s a hard tune that doesn’t follow a very standard progression. There is a larger pattern, sort of, but it took me a while to get it. Because I’m old and slow…
Structure or form is important in most improvised music today. In other words, regardless of what you play, you have to know where you are in the form. So I have found it helps me to have a bigger picture of the whole tune. On a simple tune, like a blues, the form is well known - 3 sections, the first two often similar, and a third. Statement, restatement, answer. This is how lyrics to blues are often structured, and great blues solos often follow it. Tunes like Moment’s Notice have many more complex sections, and often a larger overall structure.
So after I work on a pattern or 3 for a tune, I will also spend some time just playing over it, following the larger structures but not trying to be perfect. And really working on playing stylistically, and melodically, and thematically. If I don’t sweat a little by the end I didn’t do it right.
These last couple of weeks, I have spent between 15 and 20 minutes a day working on Moment’s Notice, and maybe another half hour or so on some other tunes - tunes I know well, tunes I haven’t played for a long time, tunes that came up at a jam recently, new tunes I heard somewhere, you get the idea. Usually 3 or 4 tunes. I try to be different each day, but there are some favorites I have - and I always play at least one blues. New tunes to me I’ll keep in rotation for a week or two. Note that Moment’s Notice will likely be in rotation for another 3 or 4 weeks. I thought I knew that tune, I learned it decades ago, but I was wrong. This might be Trane’s most compicated tune, from a structural standpoint.
Technical practice is sometimes informed by something from my improv practice. For example, a few weeks ago I played Bessie’s Blues in my practice as a warm up, and came up with a descending line of major triads, moving down by whole steps, going from the I to the IV. So going from Eb to Ab in the 3rd and 4th bar, I played major triads in eighth notes - Eb-Db | B-A | landing on Ab in the 5th bar.
That became an exercise I ran in all 12 keys, and while I did get a bit of speed over a couple weeks, I still often stumble on the first iteration and thus I repeat the exercise 8-16 times in each key, striving for relaxation, good tone, efficient fingering and just “feeling right”. My eventual goal is to be able to do it once per key, sequencing through all 12 keys, and through a full range of the horn (though this particular pattern is wide enough that for most iterations there is only one place to play it).
Well that’s quite enough for one post. I welcome comments, flames and thoughts. And maybe we’ll get to read some other interesting techniques of practicing improvisation.
24 Replies
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1730 views
I bought this tenor saxophone a little over a year ago from my professor. I just recently picked it back up for a gig with friends. Out of curiosity, I wanted to do a little research into the sax to see if it was any good since I haven't played it much. I had never heard of this brand until my professor told me about it.
The brand is E.K. Blessing. However, I can not find a model number on it, at least not one that matches any of Blessing's model numbers. There are two numbers on the bottom back of the sax. I am attaching pictures.
I was hoping you all could work your magic on this one for me. Since I have so far found nothing. I have posted this on a few Sax subreddits, but they aren't doing me any good. I figured a saxophone-focused forum could help a bit more.
The brand is E.K. Blessing. However, I can not find a model number on it, at least not one that matches any of Blessing's model numbers. There are two numbers on the bottom back of the sax. I am attaching pictures.
I was hoping you all could work your magic on this one for me. Since I have so far found nothing. I have posted this on a few Sax subreddits, but they aren't doing me any good. I figured a saxophone-focused forum could help a bit more.
11 Replies
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250 views
Tech/maintenance Just a general question to sax maintainers and repairers
Hi, and many thanks to any members who respond!
My question is whether I should give my Tenor Sax a complete overhaul (very probably!) and if so, whether I should look for a sax repairer who has specific knowledge, skills and reputation of overhauling 'vintage saxophones'.
TBH, I've asked questions on this topic to 'Google AI' and I've got some valuable responses. For example, the difference between 'regular sax maintenance' and 'complete overhauls'. Down to which local 'repairers' would be best qualified to overhaul my specific sax and the questions that I should ask them beforehand! All based on my specific Tenor sax model and year. Another 'Google AI' conclusion was that - on average - periodic 'minor sax maintenance' should be done every 1-2 years. And a 'major overhaul' might be needed every 5-10 years. My sax has had neither in 20 years!
So what I would like from experienced. informed and human sax repairers are their opinions on the answers that I got from Google AI based on the 'background 'below.
Background
I bought my 1961 'Buffet Crampon Super Dynaction' Tenor Sax about 20 years ago. At that time, it had been thoroughly 'checked out' and played easily in comparison to other 'vintage saxes' that I tried out. In the 20 years since, I've had a few minor 'playing problems' quickly inspected and fixed' by my local 'clarinet/sax' lady. Usually free of charge. But in these 20 years, my sax has never had 'periodic maintenance' or 'overhauls'
Lately (for the past 6 months or more), I've been really struggling to play my sax. With certain notes (G/G# in the higher octave) 'squeaking'. In my local sax lady's opinion (within 5 minutes) she said that the 2 octave keys worked fine mechanically. So that any 'squeaks' were probably due to my 'embouchure'. Which hasn't changed in many years.
A new Tenor Sax player recently joined my Big Band. He had sax that looked to me 'unusual'. I asked him what it what it was and said it was a John Packer JP042 Bb Tenor. He explained that it was a 'temporary sax' while he was getting his Yamaha 'restored'. He added that he wasn't yet sure which one he'd stick with. With his permission I briefly tried out his sax with my mpc and reed. TBH the 'playability' of his (new) sax with mine was a huge difference between day (his) and night (mine)!
Yes I fully realize that the 'ergonomics' of saxes has moved on significantly between 1961 and the first mention of the John Packer JP042 on the cafe in 2011.
I 'Googled (AI)' my problem and it's advice (with recommendations) was to have my Tenor Sax refurbished (overhauled) by someone who has the 'credibility' of restoring 'vintage' (1961) saxes.
My question is whether I should give my Tenor Sax a complete overhaul (very probably!) and if so, whether I should look for a sax repairer who has specific knowledge, skills and reputation of overhauling 'vintage saxophones'.
TBH, I've asked questions on this topic to 'Google AI' and I've got some valuable responses. For example, the difference between 'regular sax maintenance' and 'complete overhauls'. Down to which local 'repairers' would be best qualified to overhaul my specific sax and the questions that I should ask them beforehand! All based on my specific Tenor sax model and year. Another 'Google AI' conclusion was that - on average - periodic 'minor sax maintenance' should be done every 1-2 years. And a 'major overhaul' might be needed every 5-10 years. My sax has had neither in 20 years!
So what I would like from experienced. informed and human sax repairers are their opinions on the answers that I got from Google AI based on the 'background 'below.
Background
I bought my 1961 'Buffet Crampon Super Dynaction' Tenor Sax about 20 years ago. At that time, it had been thoroughly 'checked out' and played easily in comparison to other 'vintage saxes' that I tried out. In the 20 years since, I've had a few minor 'playing problems' quickly inspected and fixed' by my local 'clarinet/sax' lady. Usually free of charge. But in these 20 years, my sax has never had 'periodic maintenance' or 'overhauls'
Lately (for the past 6 months or more), I've been really struggling to play my sax. With certain notes (G/G# in the higher octave) 'squeaking'. In my local sax lady's opinion (within 5 minutes) she said that the 2 octave keys worked fine mechanically. So that any 'squeaks' were probably due to my 'embouchure'. Which hasn't changed in many years.
A new Tenor Sax player recently joined my Big Band. He had sax that looked to me 'unusual'. I asked him what it what it was and said it was a John Packer JP042 Bb Tenor. He explained that it was a 'temporary sax' while he was getting his Yamaha 'restored'. He added that he wasn't yet sure which one he'd stick with. With his permission I briefly tried out his sax with my mpc and reed. TBH the 'playability' of his (new) sax with mine was a huge difference between day (his) and night (mine)!
Yes I fully realize that the 'ergonomics' of saxes has moved on significantly between 1961 and the first mention of the John Packer JP042 on the cafe in 2011.
I 'Googled (AI)' my problem and it's advice (with recommendations) was to have my Tenor Sax refurbished (overhauled) by someone who has the 'credibility' of restoring 'vintage' (1961) saxes.
35 Replies
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567 views
Tech/maintenance Abalone key pearls
Needed to order from Amazon so I added a set of these to see what they're like: Bnineteenteam Key Buttons for Alto Sax, 9pcs Sax Abalone Shell Key Buttons Saxophone Key Button for soprano, alto and tenor saxophones : Amazon.co.uk: Books
Not expecting much. Most of the "real shell" pearls I've looked at seem to be covered in acrylic which means they're no different than a plastic key surely?
Anyway... for a fiver it's worth a go. Let you know what they're like once they arrive.
Not expecting much. Most of the "real shell" pearls I've looked at seem to be covered in acrylic which means they're no different than a plastic key surely?
Anyway... for a fiver it's worth a go. Let you know what they're like once they arrive.
54 Replies
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6636 views
Saxophones Saxophones, rarely discussed
Everybody knows the nice horns that get talked about all the time (Selmer, Martin, Yamaha, etc). Then there are the good instruments less talked about but I would say still fairly well known (a Yamaha Vito stencil for example).
How about a topic for those worthy saxophones (I'll leave the definition of worthy alone for now) that are rarely discussed?
Yesterday I 'discovered' the F.E. Olds Super:
Obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I have to say that is a very cool looking alto! With an interesting story as well, that you can find if you dig a bit here or at the other forum.
So, what other models might fit the topic?
How about a topic for those worthy saxophones (I'll leave the definition of worthy alone for now) that are rarely discussed?
Yesterday I 'discovered' the F.E. Olds Super:
Obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I have to say that is a very cool looking alto! With an interesting story as well, that you can find if you dig a bit here or at the other forum.
So, what other models might fit the topic?
78 Replies
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1439 views
Saxophones C Melody Saxophones
I've been interested in C Melody saxes, for a while.
Apparently, they were quite common in the 1920s-30s, and the general concensus seems to be that the designs got better as time went on. Earlier models were often made in High Pitch (a tuning system that predates using A=440Hz), and should be avoided, unless you want to accompany a Highland bagpipe player.
From what little research I've done, it seems Conn made some of the better sounding ones, and their later models were improvements over the earlier ones. The ones with a "straight" neck, similar to an alto, are supposed to be good. Personally, I don't really like the S shaped neck on a tenor.
Anyway, here's one I've asked about recently. I've posted a couple of these pictures in Ads's review discussion thread of the Sakkusu C Melody sax, but here's all I have.
This is a 1924/1925 Conn C Melody, currently for sale at the Trevor Jones shop in Bristol. It's in low pitch, has had a partial repad, and is ready to play.
Bristol is a bit far for me to visit so I asked if they could send me photos, particularly of the hand positions, because the ergonomics are a bit different on these old saxes, and C melody saxes in particular.
Ermm... there seems to be a 2 file upload limit. Hopefully, that's per post
The thumb rest is apparently soldered on, so can't be adjusted easily, but the position looks good for reaching the right side trill keys (Bb/C/high E). This seems to be an issue on the Sakkusu / Thoman C Melody (see https://cafesaxophone.com/threads/sakkusu-c-melody-saxophone-review.13705/Ads's Sakkusu C Melody review[/URL])
The "L" stamped below the serial number indicates it's built for "Low" pitch - i.e. designed for modern A=440Hz tuning. I've read different accounts of what was meant by High Pitch (and maybe there was more than one definition), but the consensus seems to be it was at least A=450Hz, or A=453Hz - kind of between semitones, in modern tuning, and too far out to compensate for by positioning the mouthpiece differently etc.
It's important to check for that when buying any brass or woodwind instrument from that period. I think military bands kept it going for a while longer, in Britain. Scottish bagpipe and Irish/Scottish Bb flute players tend to still use it, as I understand it. It's certainly the normal tuning for 5 or 6 key Bb flutes.
Apparently, they were quite common in the 1920s-30s, and the general concensus seems to be that the designs got better as time went on. Earlier models were often made in High Pitch (a tuning system that predates using A=440Hz), and should be avoided, unless you want to accompany a Highland bagpipe player.
From what little research I've done, it seems Conn made some of the better sounding ones, and their later models were improvements over the earlier ones. The ones with a "straight" neck, similar to an alto, are supposed to be good. Personally, I don't really like the S shaped neck on a tenor.
Anyway, here's one I've asked about recently. I've posted a couple of these pictures in Ads's review discussion thread of the Sakkusu C Melody sax, but here's all I have.
This is a 1924/1925 Conn C Melody, currently for sale at the Trevor Jones shop in Bristol. It's in low pitch, has had a partial repad, and is ready to play.
Bristol is a bit far for me to visit so I asked if they could send me photos, particularly of the hand positions, because the ergonomics are a bit different on these old saxes, and C melody saxes in particular.
Ermm... there seems to be a 2 file upload limit. Hopefully, that's per post
The thumb rest is apparently soldered on, so can't be adjusted easily, but the position looks good for reaching the right side trill keys (Bb/C/high E). This seems to be an issue on the Sakkusu / Thoman C Melody (see https://cafesaxophone.com/threads/sakkusu-c-melody-saxophone-review.13705/Ads's Sakkusu C Melody review[/URL])
The "L" stamped below the serial number indicates it's built for "Low" pitch - i.e. designed for modern A=440Hz tuning. I've read different accounts of what was meant by High Pitch (and maybe there was more than one definition), but the consensus seems to be it was at least A=450Hz, or A=453Hz - kind of between semitones, in modern tuning, and too far out to compensate for by positioning the mouthpiece differently etc.
It's important to check for that when buying any brass or woodwind instrument from that period. I think military bands kept it going for a while longer, in Britain. Scottish bagpipe and Irish/Scottish Bb flute players tend to still use it, as I understand it. It's certainly the normal tuning for 5 or 6 key Bb flutes.
669 Replies
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74208 views
Recipes What's Cookin'?
This is the one for pictures of food. Time for Superbowl chili!
I make it every year for the game, whether I watch it or not. In a pot I actually won... at a chili contest.
Now how 'bout a bowl of red:
I make it every year for the game, whether I watch it or not. In a pot I actually won... at a chili contest.
Now how 'bout a bowl of red:
141 Replies
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7662 views
Beginner recording body and soul
not the best recording, played the head a bit messily, the reason the video is black is because i had my phone lying on the desk with the camera pointing down into the desk
been trying to work on my sound to get it to be large and warm
any tips or constructive feedback would be appreciated
2 Replies
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97 views
Introduction hello
hey, ive been playing saxophone for roughly 13 years since i was 10 but got more serious in highschool specifically i play jazz and blues on tenor and soprano saxophone
joined this forum mainly to ask questions about technique
im looking to develop a warm and thick sound without sounding muffled or thin on the high notes, i really dislike when high notes sound thin on saxophone.
some saxophonists i enjoy listening to are king curtis, stanely turrnetine, johnny griffin, sal nistico, branford marsalis, lester young, james carter, eddie lockjaw davis, lee konitz, and charlie parker, but i listen to all sorts of musicians
joined this forum mainly to ask questions about technique
im looking to develop a warm and thick sound without sounding muffled or thin on the high notes, i really dislike when high notes sound thin on saxophone.
some saxophonists i enjoy listening to are king curtis, stanely turrnetine, johnny griffin, sal nistico, branford marsalis, lester young, james carter, eddie lockjaw davis, lee konitz, and charlie parker, but i listen to all sorts of musicians
12 Replies
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176 views
Introduction Another newcomer
Hello all – I'm new here, but old in general. I played bass clarinet, alto clarinet, and flute in the past, but that ended when I finished high school, long ago. (AD 1975.) Played guitar and bass guitar in the meantime, picked up a flute a few years ago, and bought my first saxophone, an alto, last year.
Got another sax a few months ago, and against all advice, this one is a C Melody. If playing a C Melody isn’t bad enough, both my saxophones are Chinese made. I have no career ambitions. I’m retired and play only in my living room, mostly with backing tracks from YouTube. Joining here to learn what I can.
Got another sax a few months ago, and against all advice, this one is a C Melody. If playing a C Melody isn’t bad enough, both my saxophones are Chinese made. I have no career ambitions. I’m retired and play only in my living room, mostly with backing tracks from YouTube. Joining here to learn what I can.
9 Replies
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107 views
Sheet Music What Does This Musical Notation Mark Represent ?
Here is a nice recording by Canadian Brass (quintet) of an arrangement of St Louis Blues, done for them by Luther Henderson. It has the score on screen and it seems to be aimed at "classical" musicians, in that the swing is written out (dotted eighth note and sixteenth note) and there are way more articulation markings than jazz musicians would usually see.
One mark in particular appears a few times and I am not sure what it is called or what it means. It is a sort of up and down zig zag between two notes of the same pitch, for instance in the first full bar of the trumpet 2 part.
View: https://youtu.be/UyFuzD_SO-w?si=8Cytft0e2Pcvt0h8
It looks a bit like a "turn" but isn't played that way. It seems to be played as a slight scoop up to the second note. I have seen that type of thing in jazz scores marked with a "U" mark between the two notes or a "scoop" line up to the second note.
Rhys
One mark in particular appears a few times and I am not sure what it is called or what it means. It is a sort of up and down zig zag between two notes of the same pitch, for instance in the first full bar of the trumpet 2 part.
It looks a bit like a "turn" but isn't played that way. It seems to be played as a slight scoop up to the second note. I have seen that type of thing in jazz scores marked with a "U" mark between the two notes or a "scoop" line up to the second note.
Rhys
20 Replies
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270 views
Dear Forum Members,
I’m very glad to host my first SOTM here in the café. I choose „The Chicken“ from Pee Wee Ellis. I’m shure, most of you know the song from Jaco Pastorius, but there are several other recordings out there.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgntkGc5iBo&list=RDTgntkGc5iBo&start_radio=1
Here are lead sheets in C, Bb and Eb (one document) and some backing tracks (many more on youtube).
Dropbox
For soloing and scale decisions, I found this guitar video helpful, but I personaly think blues most of the time and try to play groovy and in time instead of overthinking the notes too much.
Hoping for many funky contributions!
All the best
Dirk
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQZbsadHm2A&t=17s
I’m very glad to host my first SOTM here in the café. I choose „The Chicken“ from Pee Wee Ellis. I’m shure, most of you know the song from Jaco Pastorius, but there are several other recordings out there.
Here are lead sheets in C, Bb and Eb (one document) and some backing tracks (many more on youtube).
Dropbox
For soloing and scale decisions, I found this guitar video helpful, but I personaly think blues most of the time and try to play groovy and in time instead of overthinking the notes too much.
Hoping for many funky contributions!
All the best
Dirk
7 Replies
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277 views
Cafe Moderator
Commercial
I have a page on TTS which compares synthetic with cane:
tamingthesaxophone.com
I thought it would be interesting to start a thread where people post their soundclips comparing. You can say which is which or ask us to guess...
We compare synthetic Reeds with Cane. Sound better? last longer?
Comparing synthetic reeds with cane reeds. Do they make the saxophone sound the same, worse or better: Listen to the audio - you decide.
tamingthesaxophone.com
I thought it would be interesting to start a thread where people post their soundclips comparing. You can say which is which or ask us to guess...
0 Replies
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53 views
Saxophones Carrying a tenor on a (motor)bike?
I'm thinking of acquiring a secondhand Suzuki Van Van and learning to ride over the summer, the idea being that it will be fun, and more economical than my 4x4 for going to work and other short journeys, when the weather is reasonable. But on quite a few of those journeys I am accompanied by my tenor.
Anyone carry one on a bike, and got any advice please?
Anyone carry one on a bike, and got any advice please?
768 Replies
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84348 views
Tone or Sound embrochure position with recessed jaw
my jaw is slightly recessed, not too bad but it is not even with my upper lip
i can still get an alright sound but should i be purposefully putting my lower lip foward in order to compensate for this?
i find forcing the lower lip further foward does make the reed feel like its more free, and easier to get altissimo notes. but long term it feels a bit uncomfortable and unnatural so i find myself subconsciously putting my lower lip further back over time
i can still get an alright sound but should i be purposefully putting my lower lip foward in order to compensate for this?
i find forcing the lower lip further foward does make the reed feel like its more free, and easier to get altissimo notes. but long term it feels a bit uncomfortable and unnatural so i find myself subconsciously putting my lower lip further back over time
4 Replies
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109 views
Saxophones Selmer Supreme alto (quick look)
Had a client bring two Selmer altos in yesterday - a Ref.54 for a service and a brand new solid silver Supreme.
First time I've had my hands on one.
It only came in for a quick tweak - so no time to run up a proper review, but I did notice a couple of things.
First up - the client brought it in because there was a problem when moving from low B to low Bb; a break in the transition.
This turned out to be a badly adjusted link between the low B and the low C#. In fact it wasn't really adjusted at all - so that when his finger rolled down onto the Bb touchpiece and just caught the C# touchpiece on the way, the C# would open about 3mm. That's plenty enough to knock out the low B.
And there was this:
This is the Bis Bb/G# adjuster bar. Take a look at that gap between the Bis Bb arm and the adjuster above it. In horn terms it's miles away.
The adjuster is actually set right in terms of its ability to close the Bis Bb - so you can't screw the adjuster in to take up the play. What this means is that the lower stack is set substantially higher than the upper.
I had a quick peek at the toneholes. Selmer are traditionally pretty good at getting the toneholes level, but I was rather disappointed with the low C on this horn:
I compared it with the Ref.54 - which still wasn't perfect but was rather flatter.
So, not a great start for the Supreme. It comes in at an eye-watering price, and for that kind of money I want all the boxes ticked...and then some. So I'd expect the out-of-box setup to be spot on and rather more precision when it comes to the toneholes. Y'know, a bit like a top-end Yani.
And then I had a blow on the Supreme.
I was expecting a 'Woah!' moment - and I got one...but not the one I wanted.
It prompted me to go back and forth between the Supreme and the Ref.54. The Ref is exactly what you'd expect from a Selmer. Nicely balanced, a 'big' sound with that characteristic Selmer mid-range oomph, slightly resistant but nonetheless punchy - with a wide spread of sound.
The Supreme felt very closed in, like it was keeping the sound huddled around itself. And where was the punch and clarity?
It had a sort of Paul Desmond thing going on...that sort of laid back, soft kind of approach. That's fine...if you can turn it on and off at will but it kind of comes stamped into the horn.
That really surprised me because it's dramatically different from the Ref - so-much-so that I had to put a light down the Supreme to see if there was a problem with one of the pads (nothing major...slight leak on the A, which didn't change the tone when corrected).
I can't say it's a conclusive impression because it's just that horn - but even accounting for variations between seemingly identical horns it seems a bit extreme.
I'm hoping the client is going to book the Supreme in for a proper setup once I've serviced the Ref - at which point I can do a proper run-down on it and see what's what.
First time I've had my hands on one.
It only came in for a quick tweak - so no time to run up a proper review, but I did notice a couple of things.
First up - the client brought it in because there was a problem when moving from low B to low Bb; a break in the transition.
This turned out to be a badly adjusted link between the low B and the low C#. In fact it wasn't really adjusted at all - so that when his finger rolled down onto the Bb touchpiece and just caught the C# touchpiece on the way, the C# would open about 3mm. That's plenty enough to knock out the low B.
And there was this:
This is the Bis Bb/G# adjuster bar. Take a look at that gap between the Bis Bb arm and the adjuster above it. In horn terms it's miles away.
The adjuster is actually set right in terms of its ability to close the Bis Bb - so you can't screw the adjuster in to take up the play. What this means is that the lower stack is set substantially higher than the upper.
I had a quick peek at the toneholes. Selmer are traditionally pretty good at getting the toneholes level, but I was rather disappointed with the low C on this horn:
I compared it with the Ref.54 - which still wasn't perfect but was rather flatter.
So, not a great start for the Supreme. It comes in at an eye-watering price, and for that kind of money I want all the boxes ticked...and then some. So I'd expect the out-of-box setup to be spot on and rather more precision when it comes to the toneholes. Y'know, a bit like a top-end Yani.
And then I had a blow on the Supreme.
I was expecting a 'Woah!' moment - and I got one...but not the one I wanted.
It prompted me to go back and forth between the Supreme and the Ref.54. The Ref is exactly what you'd expect from a Selmer. Nicely balanced, a 'big' sound with that characteristic Selmer mid-range oomph, slightly resistant but nonetheless punchy - with a wide spread of sound.
The Supreme felt very closed in, like it was keeping the sound huddled around itself. And where was the punch and clarity?
It had a sort of Paul Desmond thing going on...that sort of laid back, soft kind of approach. That's fine...if you can turn it on and off at will but it kind of comes stamped into the horn.
That really surprised me because it's dramatically different from the Ref - so-much-so that I had to put a light down the Supreme to see if there was a problem with one of the pads (nothing major...slight leak on the A, which didn't change the tone when corrected).
I can't say it's a conclusive impression because it's just that horn - but even accounting for variations between seemingly identical horns it seems a bit extreme.
I'm hoping the client is going to book the Supreme in for a proper setup once I've serviced the Ref - at which point I can do a proper run-down on it and see what's what.
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