Saxophone beginners Playing higher - pitches

[wooster]

Hello all,

I seem to have been lurking around the beginners section for quite a while, but sometimes quickly sometimes slowly, I guess.

Anyway my current curiosity is, whether I should concentrate most of my playing in the lower range ie up to high C ( second leger line above ) until I get my embouchure position sorted properly or should I go as high as possible go challenge myself? The reason I ask is that I've had to take some time away from playing the past due to jaw issues which I believe might have been brought about by biting in an attempt to get higher notes in tune and obviously I'd like to avoid another lengthy break. I also have been diagnosed with hyperflexibility and it makes me prone to tendon and joint problems.

I'm inclined to make sure I'm properly relaxed before I strain too much but on the other hand I want to challenge myself if possible. My teacher ( who I see only periodically ) said, my embouchure looked all right last time I saw him, sort of brushed it aside, but I find I get a bit sore on the muscles at my jaw joints and some pain going up the side of my face if I play a lot of higher notes or harmonics doing long notes and scales.

What do you say?

 

[wakyct]

I heard something (OK it was Patrick Bartley) that made sense to me, which was that some learners, particularly adults, overly concentrate on one aspect of practice, and in his opinion it's better to take a generalist approach and do everything. Don't think of concentrating on one aspect or another, but address all that needs improving. So for most of us, that's everything! 🙂

That said, if something hurts, obviously stop and do it in moderation.

 

[mizmar]

biting in an attempt to get higher notes in tune

Yeah. Don't do that!
Are you judging "in tune" with a tuning app/device? If so, don't do that.

I think the consensus is that tuning should, for the most part when you're learning be; set-it and forget-it; ie. Warm up the sax. With a tuner adjust the mouthpiece (in out) so that a low/medium/high note (eg C or Bb) are in tune without adjusting your relaxed embouchure (your sax is in tune with itself) and then ditch the tuner. If anything, play long-tones with a drone to bring ear and sax into alignment.

I don't know what's good pedagogy; but I found that overtones was a huge help with everything to do with sounds production and control. Long overtones, overtone scales. Etc. Some people, maybe Wally Wallace? Have some great material for this.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Biting to get higher is a logical thing but saxophone is anything but logical.

Oral cavity and airstream are the tools to use. Just like whistling the size and shape of the oral cavity is adjusted to accommodate the pitch and the airstream is directed to control the reed. Embouchure remains more or less constant. Let the notes form in your mouth and push them through the horn with your air.

To play high, think low.

More importantly practice being musical. Just play and it will come. Slowly extend your range as you expand your repertoire. Let your ear guide your sound output.

Play every day if even for a few minutes. Don't beat yourself up over things you can't do yet. Be patient but persistent.

 

[skeller047]

I think that one’s goal should be to play the full range of the horn easily, so I wouldn’t advise restricting.

A good embouchure is firm facial muscles and minimal pressure on the reed. It’s sort of like isometrics for the face; tighten the muscles but don’t force them against anything. The joint of the jaw should not be involved in the embouchure. It’s the facial muscles that do the work. When the facial muscles are tired, it’s a natural tendency to use the jaw muscles, which are way stronger. Try to be aware of this, and take a rest break instead of continuing to play when you find yourself tightening the jaw muscles.

More important is to have good strong air support. So many beginning players concentrate on embouchure, but in my opinion any reasonable embouchure will work fine if the player has their air together. Strong support from the abdominal core. Relaxed chest, shoulders and throat; minimal embouchure. Result: good sound and easy intonation.

 

[lydian]

Mastering one note before moving to the next is always best because the skills required to play one note really well transfer directly to the next note. Otherwise you'll play every note badly. By master, I mean instantly recognize on the page, hear it in your mind before you play it, play it with a beautiful, controlled, steady tone and perfectly in tune with good articulation.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Mastering one note before moving to the next is always best because the skills required to play one note really well transfer directly to the next note.

Yes this is a great way to develop range as the transition from one to the next semitone is minimal.

Having said that a point will come when you do need to jump up large intervals and hit the high notes.

Hence once you can go there one by one, sooner rather than later, practice bigger intervals e.g. with arpeggio exercises.

At that point one thing that helps is to really be able to imagine the pitch, i.e. “hear” the note in your head before playing it.

 

[MikeMorrell]

Hi @wooster ,

Just out of interest, I looked up 'hyperflexility (here). I'm sure that your personal history and assessment is probably very different to this generic description!

I see from your posts that you play both alto and tenor saxes. As an amateur, I've only ever played tenor sax. With with very occasional (temporary) 'try outs' of alto, sop. and bari saxes. My (very 1st) impressions were that a slightly different 'embouchure' and 'voicing' was needed on each sax. Simply because the mpc's and reeds vary in size between each. And also that the range of 'voicings' is different on each. Multi-sax players please correct me!

TBH I was hopeless playing anything other than tenor and bari (even easier!).

So I'm just an amateur (tenor) sax player who still struggles to hit the higher and lower notes. At least ... on time, with the right volume, tone, intonation, etc. As far as my 'highest notes' are concerned, my ability to play them gradually decreases as my 'embouchure muscles' (after an hour or two of playing) gradually collapse.

You're probably much more aware of 'embouchure' muscles, ligaments and potential 'strain' than I am. But FWIW,
this series of YouTube videos by sax player Harvey Pittel made me much more aware of the 'physical aspects' of playing sax. Spoiler alert, his series is all about reducing physical tension and increasing physical relaxation when playing sax. Soley aimed at all sax players who want to improve their tone.

The video below is part 4: Embouchure. But his whole series of 11-12 videos is IMHO well worth watching.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvvilCbPjfQ

Hello all,

I seem to have been lurking around the beginners section for quite a while, but sometimes quickly sometimes slowly, I guess.

Anyway my current curiosity is, whether I should concentrate most of my playing in the lower range ie up to high C ( second leger line above ) until I get my embouchure position sorted properly or should I go as high as possible go challenge myself? The reason I ask is that I've had to take some time away from playing the past due to jaw issues which I believe might have been brought about by biting in an attempt to get higher notes in tune and obviously I'd like to avoid another lengthy break. I also have been diagnosed with hyperflexibility and it makes me prone to tendon and joint problems.

I'm inclined to make sure I'm properly relaxed before I strain too much but on the other hand I want to challenge myself if possible. My teacher ( who I see only periodically ) said, my embouchure looked all right last time I saw him, sort of brushed it aside, but I find I get a bit sore on the muscles at my jaw joints and some pain going up the side of my face if I play a lot of higher notes or harmonics doing long notes and scales.

What do you say?

 

[cappers]

Oral cavity and airstream are the tools to use. Just like whistling the size and shape of the oral cavity is adjusted to accommodate the pitch and the airstream is directed to control the reed. .........

To play high, think low.

@Colin the Bear
You have written "To play high, think low" before but what exactly do you mean by that?

When I play high notes like the palm keys my eyebrows raise Should I frown instead?
Seriously please explain 🙂

I find that low notes need strong slow breaths and a low flat tongue, and high notes a faster breath and an arched tongue.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Play high notes the same as low notes.
Don't squeeze or stand on tip toe or lift your head up or raise your eyebrows or anything. Think of the lowest note, finger what you want to play and let it happen.

Take a run up in semitones and then remember how you got there and pop it out at will.

 

[cappers]

Thanks, @Colin the Bear, just wrote this as your reply popped up.

Blow a high note (and all notes?) with the same feeling as if it's a low B or Bb. No change in embouchure or squeezing/biting, just warm air flowing freely from the abdomen.

Been doing lots of long tones and experimenting with changes in oral cavity shape and sound. It seems instinctive to think high but the counterintuitive seems to be correct.

Cheers.

 

[wooster]

Thank you all for your replies. I suspect I go on a bit too long trying to play with tired mouth muscles.

Today I took Colin’s advice and tried visualising Bb no matter where I played. Quite a Jedi trick but after a bit I felt I was main sole progress aka was able to relax more when I got higher in the scales. I really need to be a bit more patient and chill out a bit so I’m going to play some tunes for the rest of the week ;-)

 

[Tenor Viol]

It can take a while ot get some notes to sound clearly and 'on demand'. I had problems getting palm E to sound when I needed it - it took quite a while to get it. On the sax I was playing at the time it seemed sensitive to the speed of the air stream. That was on tenor. I never had that issue once I switched to a Yani, but I had fixed it by then - the Yani has always been an easier 'blow'.

 

[mizmar]

Today I..

...need to be a bit more patient...

Indeed.
Probably a good practice includes a bit of time (10 mins?) working on technique, such as high notes, overtones, etc. long-tones etc. every day. You are building (good) habits, not learning facts.

 

[skeller047]

Here is a video where the “clarinet ninja”, Jay Hassler, talks with one of the foremost clarinetists in the world, Larry Guy. Jay is a professional New York City clarinetist, and Larry Guy was also for many years, appearing with all the major area orchestras and being one of the top freelance clarinetists in New York. Several years ago he retired to New Mexico.

Why post this? Because they spend the first 1/2 hour talking about embouchure. Clarinet embouchure is different from saxophone embouchure, but the principles are the same. Use the facial muscles to form the embouchure, don’t use the jaw muscles and breath support is really the key to the whole thing.

This is an excellent discussion between two top professionals who are experienced in teaching adult learners, and I found their conversation fascinating.

View: https://youtu.be/YGJkKq6XaS0

 

[Pete Effamy]

Mastering one note before moving to the next is always best because the skills required to play one note really well transfer directly to the next note. Otherwise you'll play every note badly. By master, I mean instantly recognize on the page, hear it in your mind before you play it, play it with a beautiful, controlled, steady tone and perfectly in tune with good articulation.

This is part of what flautist Trevor Wye advocates in his book (The Flute?) - matching sound / developing tone etc.

Premise: work on middle B, and when happy with it, move to Bb. And so on…

Playing particularly flat when only just above the stave on sax worries me, and leads me to think that even the low register technique isn’t formulated. I can understand it on a clarinet when starting to venture “upstairs “ but not on sax.

Go with the advice above on air support and revisit embouchure, rather than having to resort to biting / use of jaw / teeth.

 

[Pete Effamy]

The above exercise (B moving downward):

Try initially slurring from note to note - no articulation at all, and certainly no change in air - just to see what happens. You’re after the same sound, just progressively lower. Try a count of 4 at 60bpm for each note - anything that is enough to properly hear each note and control it.

Eventually, you do the exercise with articulation on the start of each note - but if this is heavy and upsets the flow, leave it out until tonguing is lighter.

 

[wooster]

I do feel this whole problem is the result of me going on too long and getting tired. I am changing my ways to try and make my playing consist of short sessions.

 

[mizmar]

focused, 10-15 minute, daily work on one thing, where you do a little, properly is, probably, way better then a long bash, where things get sloppy, once a week.
An hour or so daily can be filled with a few, short, bits of work on, for example, tone, patterns (scales, arpeggios etc) some tough phrase, new material by ear, some slight reading, practice a piece, enjoy playing something, improv/noodling...

 

[cappers]

I enjoy long tone exercise, listening and aiming for a beautiful and steady focused sound.
It's almost meditative especially with a drone accompaniment, and the benefits are beginning to show.

For quite a while I've avoided practicing LTs at home due to neighbour issues. So I've been doing 'quiet' long tones, blowing just enough to sound the notes softly and constantly, again aiming to stay in tune but with no change in volume. Not as easy as I thought but it sure focusses my mind on embouchure and breath support.