Tech/maintenance Mouthpiece and saxophone tuning mismatch

[chadders]

Apologies if this has been previously covered... Am I correct in thinking that if you tune your saxophone (tenor) to concert A and then take the mouthpiece and neck off and blow, you should get a concert E ? If this is the case and if there is a big variation when you blow the E ( more than you can adjust for), what can you do to correct this?
thanks

 

[skeller047]

I get an E when playing with just the mouthpiece and neck on tenor. But I would not use that as an indication of anything to do with intonation.

What I do is tune B2 to the first overtone of B1. I finger B2 (just so we’re clear, this the B that appears on the middle line of the staff), and then finger low B while keeping blowing. That enables you to compare the pitch of middle B (B2) to the same note, but produced as an overtone of low B.

The “short pipe” note will be affected much more by mouthpiece position than the low B overblown. So if regular middle B is flat compared to the low B overtone, push the mouthpiece in. If sharp, pull out.

Once they match, adjust your embouchure and voicing to play in tune with the mouthpiece in that position. This will improve both tone and intonation.

 

[chadders]

Thank you - that's very interesting. I have now tried this with 2 mouthpieces (Morgan Fry & PPT) on my Conn New Wonder II tenor. Both give similar results but the PPT is slightly easier to get closer to being 'in-tune' - If I then try just the mouthpiece and neck - I get an E+50 (or F-50 depending on haha) with my natural 'blow' on both mouthpieces - I can drop my jaw to get the right pitch but that does feel like a natural blow

 

[Grumps]

Keep your mouthpiece and neck on the horn. What comes out the end is the only thing you need in tune. All that one true note thing coming from a mouthpiece or mouthpiece connected to a neck is pure sophistry. Too many variables to quantify in this regard to make anything of it other than a lesson you can charge money for.

 

[Tuppertn]

Grumps nailed it.

What the neck and mp do without the horn is irrelevant--unless you're doing some weird avant garde, kazoo sounding stuff using just the mp and neck, I guess.

 

[Dr G]

Now buy a bunch of mouthpieces and necks, and write a test matrix to ensure that you try every combination. Determine the best match to a random frequency, then see if your tone sounds any better. Iterate with 5 different reeds. What have you learned?

Or just practice your saxophone while actively listening to every sound you produce with the intention of making music.

 

[Pete Thomas]

(Morgan Fry & PPT)

Aha. We design the PPT mouthpieces specifically so that if you take it off the horn, and blow into it, it automatically plays Charlie Parker's 1947 solo from Scrapple form the Apple one octave higher.

 

[MikeMorrell]

Perhaps completely irrelevant (if so apologies).

Last Saturday afternoon, I went to a concert given by a Big Band who I played with for many years up until 2 years ago. I was there early (to take photos and videos). One of the tenor sax players - who I'd played with for years and had the same Brand/model sax as me - was desperately trying to find the 'cause' of his sax 'not working properly'. I'd come straight from a rehearsal in the morning so I said "well, just use mine". He tried it out and said, "I can't get your sax tuned with my mpc, but I've borrowed the tenor sax from the interval 'combo sax player' and that seems to work fine

My (very amateur) conclusions
- his mpc didn't fit well on my my neck cork
- not all mpc's fit equally equally well on all neck corks.

I really have to screw my mpc's as far as possible on my neck cork to get my sax to play in tune. Yes, I need to 'sand my cork down a bit' to get a bit more flexibility.

 

[Digger2054]

on my Conn New Wonder II tenor.

Same horn that I play. I tune to B, some notes need certainty need assistance to play in tune.

My teacher is a conn player, and stresses the importance of a loose relaxed embochure, and an open throat.

I've a lesson later today and going to take a look at this... See the Post @Pete Thomas referred too.

Interested to hear @skeller047 method 👍

 

[Tenor Viol]

I think @chadders is possibly alluding to some posts by the late JBT (John Talcott) - might be worth checking his posts to see what he was saying?

 

[Woodpad]

Apologies if this has been previously covered... Am I correct in thinking that if you tune your saxophone (tenor) to concert A and then take the mouthpiece and neck off and blow, you should get a concert E ? If this is the case and if there is a big variation when you blow the E ( more than you can adjust for), what can you do to correct this?
thanks

In the times before Grumps (BG) saxophones where developed to play tuned to a certain mouthpiece. It was a tuning hazard to change mouthpieces between brands. Then all saxophone teachers in the world suddenly vowed for a brief period of history that all there students should play a mark 6, a saxophone named after the famous 6M. This caused saxophone brands to build saxophones in a more narrow territory around the mark 6 and the tuning problem diminished, but didn't succumb. This is because tuning is also dependent on embouchure, reed, volume, Co2 content of air, temperature, vertical distance to sea level, around 124 narrow tolerance on your saxophone and the sound you want to play. Good luck, you need it.

 

[Grumps]

... possibly alluding to some posts by the late JBT (John Talcott) - might be worth checking his posts to see what he was saying?

He was way more interesting on usenet...

 

[Pete Thomas]

I think @chadders is possibly alluding to some posts by the late JBT (John Talcott) - might be worth checking his posts to see what he was saying?

If this is about what note plays on a mouthpiece , or mouthpiece on neck only, then I believe that is to do with embouchure rather than tuning.

 

[Pete Thomas]

He was way more interesting on usenet...

I disagree wit that, I think you might also if you read his posts here. RIP jbt.

 

[JayeNM]

Aha. We design the PPT mouthpieces specifically so that if you take it off the horn, and blow into it, it automatically plays Charlie Parkers 1947 solo from Scrapple form the Apple at one octave higher.

Not convinced yet.... at what BPM does it play it ?

 

[JayeNM]

Way I look at it...if you CANNOT get your horn to tune within acceptable parameters up and down...

(I consider this 10 cents variance, some may consider it a bit less....but there are also some who crazily feel variance should be no more than like 4-5 cents up and down...to which I always wonder WHY they took up Sax)....

...then you can go to these suggestions on finding pitch with neck off, or solely on mouthpiece.

But no need to go there if you can make it come out of the horn within that variance, IMHO.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Not convinced yet.... at what BPM does it play it ?

It's measured in BPS not BPM

 

[JayeNM]

In the times before Grumps (BG) saxophones where developed to play tuned to a certain mouthpiece. It was a tuning hazard to change mouthpieces between brands. Then all saxophone teachers in the world suddenly vowed for a brief period of history that all there students should play a mark 6, a saxophone named after the famous 6M. This caused saxophone brands to build saxophones in a more narrow territory around the mark 6 and the tuning problem diminished, but didn't succumb. This is because tuning is also dependent on embouchure, reed, volume, Co2 content of air, temperature, vertical distance to sea level, around 124 narrow tolerance on your saxophone and the sound you want to play. Good luck, you need it.

It's an interesting historical hypothesis, especially when you consider pre-ww2 horns usually came with good, stock mouthpieces and those tended to be fairly specific in specification (low or no baffle, medium to large chamber, closed tip).

Then folks started slapping on more varied and advanced mouthpieces primarily to find a tonality/sound and perhaps something with better blowing response.

So the hypothesis is that this is when intonation problems began ?

And one 'solution' was therefore to narrow the variation of body specs so the resulting horns would be more mouthpiece friendly ?

Again, an interesting idea...if I haven't misinterpreted your comment....

Makes me wonder if all that b#tching about intonation on older horns... would be alleviated if one slapped their old rubber Buescher or King stock mouthpiece.... on their old Buescher or King ?

I NEVER have tested that, using an original stock branded mouthpiece on same brand horn, but it is an interesting thought.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Mouthpiece, and mouthpiece and crook is for embouchure and oral cavity training. You should be able to bend the note on tenor mp alone about a fourth, maybe a little more. On alto just short of an octave. It 's possibly helpful for raw recruits to get an idea of where and how to blow.

I think @chadders you' re beyond this stage.

To get your saxophone in tune with itself, overblow the bell notes and compare them with natural fingerings.

Overblown C1 to C2, G2 and C3... B1...etc. Bb1...etc

Use a tuner if it helps and adjust the mouthpiece till you get these notes to match as closely as you can with the least amount of input. Mark the cork and always play it there. Put the tuner in the drawer, (or the bin).

Stick to one mouthpiece. Pick the one that is easiest to get in tune and stick to it. Don't go for tone, yet. Any tone out of tune sounds awful.

This process solved all my intonation issues.

 

[Grumps]

I disagree wit that, I think you might also if you read his posts here. RIP jbt.

Hard pass.