Tech/maintenance Mouthpiece and saxophone tuning mismatch

[r. giuseppe]

would be alleviated if one slapped their old rubber Buescher or King stock mouthpiece....

That’s at least true for my Conns. 12M with a huge original (design) mouthpiece is spot on for every note with my ‘36 12M. And I mean really spot on. You might want a less symphonic sound though depending on the music you play.

 

[thomsax]

I was told by a guy to learn to blow a G on a tenor mouthpiece. Just mouthpiece and reed. The design doesn't matter. Maybe all wrong ........ ????

 

[davidk]

…

To get your saxophone in tune with itself, overblow the bell notes and compare them with natural fingerings.

Overblown C1 to C2, G2 and C3... B1...etc. Bb1...etc

…

I can see that this would work with octaves, but for the other overtones wouldn’t they be in a different temperament to the horn itself and therefore not in tune with each other?

 

[davidk]

Learning to play an octave scale on just the mouthpiece helped my tone immensely. It forced me to consider the effect of throat and oral cavity changes when playing the horn.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I was told by a guy to learn to blow a G on a tenor mouthpiece. Just mouthpiece and reed. The design doesn't matter. Maybe all wrong ........ ????

Some people think it is a good thing. But as above, that has nothing to do with tuning the saxophone.

 

[Wonko]

Way I look at it...if you CANNOT get your horn to tune within acceptable parameters up and down...

(I consider this 10 cents variance, some may consider it a bit less....but there are also some who crazily feel variance should be no more than like 4-5 cents up and down...to which I always wonder WHY they took up Sax)....

...then you can go to these suggestions on finding pitch with neck off, or solely on mouthpiece.

But no need to go there if you can make it come out of the horn within that variance, IMHO.

Earlier this week I heard a Belgian saxophonist tell about the sax in the music of Madness (I think). Apparently he could not play in tune, was alway half a note off. And that would be (in part) what makes the sound of their recordings.......
So pitch is not always as important as one might think.... just make it sound good and interesting

 

[skeller047]

I can see that this would work with octaves, but for the other overtones wouldn’t they be in a different temperament to the horn itself and therefore not in tune with each other?

The reason for doing this is to set your mouthpiece so the horn plays in tune with itself. Playing in tune with other instruments is then up to you and your voicing skills. I only check the first two overtones, B1 overblown to B2 and overblown to F#2. Bb is not in tune on many instruments, and C can also be a little wonky, so I just do this with B. Once I find the correct spot for my mouthpiece I just always put it there. I only very rarely have to move it, playing in tune is MY job, not the mouthpiece's.

My experience doing this led me to have to push in - I was using too tight an embouchure, which raised the pitch of the "short pipe" notes. Once I was able to play with less pressure on the reed, it was actually easier to play in tune - because the intervals on the instrument were in line with each other. Loosening up also improved my tone a lot. It does require that your embouchure be stronger than playing tight - you have to have your muscles at just the right level of tension, but it's not full tension, and that can get tiring quickly if you're not used to it.

JBT's approach to this was what he called "mouthpiece pitch" - the note you play on the mourhpiece alone. This is a tool to help you form the proper embouchure and set your voicing up correctly, and is a common practice among certain saxophone professors. I actually find it to be useless, whereas he thought of it as an important technique, especially for beginners.

I can play about a 9th range on an alto mouthpiece, just by varying voicing (throat and tongue) and a little embouchure change at the extremes of the range. That's just a flexibility exercise, and I think of it as a parlor trick. That said, if you can't play at least a 5th or so range on mouthpiece alone, just by varying your voicing, then you need to work on your embouchure and voicing technique. I would think of this kind of mouthpiece work as an indication of your flexibility, but actual work on voicing and embouchure should be done on the full instrument. In other words, don't bother with practicing on the mouthpiece alone.

 

[davidk]

I can see that this would work with octaves, but for the other overtones wouldn’t they be in a different temperament to the horn itself and therefore not in tune with each other?

To clarify, when I say in tune with each other I mean the overtone being in tune with the fundamental.

I thought the overtones would use “just intonation”, which would give different tunings to the equal temperament of the horn.

I’ve just looked this up and confirmed my suspicions. The octave overtones, the second and fourth notes in the harmonic series, should be in tune with the fingered notes on the saxophone. The third note, a fifth above the octave, will be 2 cents sharper than the equal temperament (fingered) equivalent, so almost, but not quite, in tune with itself.

The fifth note of the series, a major third above the second octave, will be 14 cents flatter than the equal temperament equivalent.

Harmonic series (music) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is the most useful guide I’ve found to tuning the saxophone, ensuring that the three fingered Bs are in tune with themselves, then altering your pitch centre to match your tuner:

saxcoach

Learn how to play saxophone and improvise.

saxcoach.org

Mouthpiece Placement, Tuning & Tone by Stephen Duke, 2001, Yamaha Corporation of America

 

[Grumps]

That’s at least true for my Conns. 12M with a huge original (design) mouthpiece is spot on for every note with my ‘36 12M. And I mean really spot on. You might want a less symphonic sound though depending on the music you play.

My Conn bari is much older... from around 1920 and keyed only up to Eb3. I had a K6 Woodwind Co. mouthpiece given to me by Paul Lindemeyer way back when that worked for a time. Then I came across a RPC with an extended shank that gave me more of a modern, open feel and still plays in tune on the ancient horn. So well in fact, I had Ron make me another before he passed. Very glad I did.

 

[turf3]

In the times before Grumps (BG) saxophones where developed to play tuned to a certain mouthpiece. It was a tuning hazard to change mouthpieces between brands. Then all saxophone teachers in the world suddenly vowed for a brief period of history that all there students should play a mark 6, a saxophone named after the famous 6M. This caused saxophone brands to build saxophones in a more narrow territory around the mark 6 and the tuning problem diminished, but didn't succumb. This is because tuning is also dependent on embouchure, reed, volume, Co2 content of air, temperature, vertical distance to sea level, around 124 narrow tolerance on your saxophone and the sound you want to play. Good luck, you need it.

Ummm, nope.

Yes, a saxophone is designed based on certain assumptions about the internal volume of the mouthpiece, of course. But to a specific brand? no. The Mark 6 was NOT named after the Conn 6M (where did you get that from?)

The TRUTH is that the number of saxophones made after 1920 that are inherently "out of tune" is essentially zero. If you play a sax with a mouthpiece of radically different internal volume than the internal volume assumed in the design of the horn, it will play either flat or sharp and if you have to pull way way out or push way way in, it'll throw the scale wonky. This is far less often an issue than internet scuttlebutt would have one believe; it tends to be localized to just a few makes and models (for example, the Conn 12M baritone is sensitive to small chamber pieces, but their 10M tenor and 6M alto aren't, at least not within the range of most modern MPs), and the cure is to use a different MP. With the proliferation of mouthpieces of various designs in the last couple decades, there is no real difficulty here.

 

[turf3]

It's an interesting historical hypothesis, especially when you consider pre-ww2 horns usually came with good, stock mouthpieces and those tended to be fairly specific in specification (low or no baffle, medium to large chamber, closed tip).

Then folks started slapping on more varied and advanced mouthpieces primarily to find a tonality/sound and perhaps something with better blowing response.

So the hypothesis is that this is when intonation problems began ?

And one 'solution' was therefore to narrow the variation of body specs so the resulting horns would be more mouthpiece friendly ?

Again, an interesting idea...if I haven't misinterpreted your comment....

Makes me wonder if all that b#tching about intonation on older horns... would be alleviated if one slapped their old rubber Buescher or King stock mouthpiece.... on their old Buescher or King ?

I NEVER have tested that, using an original stock branded mouthpiece on same brand horn, but it is an interesting thought.

Or you can do something CRAZY liike using a modern larger chamber piece.

 

[turf3]

To the OP's original comment:

1) I do not recommend tuning to concert A: on alto this is F# an incompletely vented note, and on tenor it's B which is a short-tube note. I recommend tuning all saxophones to fingered G, which is a well vented note in the middle of the tube length.

2) I don't subscribe to "mouthpiece pitch" because the length of mouthpiece shanks varies wildly amongst makes and models. I don't subscribe to "mouthpiece plus neck" pitch either, because similar variation exists here, though to a smaller extent. Think of the difference between the length of a Selmer baritone neck and a Conn baritone neck.

 

[turf3]

Oh, and 3) the neck cork is a consumable item. DO NOT allow the condition of the neck cork to dictate where on the neck you put your MP. If you can't get it on far enough, sand down the cork. If it's loose when you're pulled out to the correct place, wrap some paper, PTFE tape, or get it re-corked.

 

[JayeNM]

Or you can do something CRAZY liike using a modern larger chamber piece.

Yes but I was specifically wondering about the hypothetical explanation he laid out...that actually the horn and stock mouthpiece match was, once upon a time, designed/intended to result in the best intonational combination.
Again, just an interesting thought.

 

[JayeNM]

The TRUTH is that the number of saxophones made after 1920 that are inherently "out of tune" is essentially zero. If you play a sax with a mouthpiece of radically different internal volume than the internal volume assumed in the design of the horn, it will play either flat or sharp and if you have to pull way way out or push way way in, it'll throw the scale wonky. This is far less often an issue than internet scuttlebutt would have one believe; it tends to be localized to just a few makes and models (for example, the Conn 12M baritone is sensitive to small chamber pieces, but their 10M tenor and 6M alto aren't, at least not within the range of most modern MPs), and the cure is to use a different MP. With the proliferation of mouthpieces of various designs in the last couple decades, there is no real difficulty here.

I agree 90% with this.

It is something which has ALWAYS, ALWAYS been WAY OVERSTATED (the whole "vintage horns have intonation problems")...

IMHO some do...most reputed mfr ones....do not.....

...and I do believe this fallacy has been pushed by contemporary manufacturers and dealers of modern horns....

*this is not to say that it is all fantasy and a ruse....mind you. There is, speaking very broadly, more intonational "flex" to a Conn or Martin than there is to a Yani or Yama...this referring to how a players can coax certain colors out of a horn by altering embouchure and blowing technique, bend the intonation of notes intentionally, etc....but that isn't the same thing as 'intones badly' or 'intonational problems'

 

[JayeNM]

That’s at least true for my Conns. 12M with a huge original (design) mouthpiece is spot on for every note with my ‘36 12M. And I mean really spot on. You might want a less symphonic sound though depending on the music you play.

Yes, and not just 12M's...using the big ol' barrel-style baritone mouthpieces on vintage baris does tend to make them perform much better, intonationally. I have found this to be so on Bueschers, Martins, Kings, Holtons and some European makes like Beaugnier or Pierret and the Italians as well....

 

[turf3]

I have zero intonation issues with a Meyer on my 12M. On the other hand, a small round chamber Vandoren tuned poorly. But you don't have to play one of those dill pickle pieces that feels just like blowing into an old gym sock. Especially now that multiple makers supply MPs with a variety of baffles AND large internal chamber.

There is very considerable latitude in mouthpiece internal volume to get a good-enough saxophone scale; but whether a given horn mates well with a given mouthpiece depends on the MP internal volume that was assumed when the thing was designed.

Of course, most saxophone makers didn't make the stock mouthpieces they supplied with their instruments, and some (Conn for example) supplied three, four, or five different stock pieces over the life of a model.

 

[r. giuseppe]

Bb is not in tune on many instruments, and C can also be a little wonky

You’re pointing out something important. Getting your sax in tune with itself always sounds like the ultimate Jedi advice for a balanced intonation. And I also think tuning the Bs is the best way to tune a sax. But the truth is, that this may not really work out for all overtones in a sax that has been tuned in real life conditions (heat, cold, whatever) and - more importantly- it may completely fail for certain sax-mouthpiece combinations and in the hand of an inexperienced player. It doesn’t help, if an advanced beginner dials in a tuning with the sax in tune, but stands out of the section by being 30 ct sharp all the time. In that case I prefer the small tingling pain of the out-of-control middle d with everything else in the range of the others.

I have zero intonation issues with a Meyer on my 12M.

I have no doubt that you don’t, but I am not sure if that is the same thing I meant.

When I played my 12M with the Conn Eagle Remake Clark Fobes used to make, I could have played a keyboard instead, with the tuner needle locked in the center. Perfect equal temperament in an Instrument that turns crazy with moderate small chamber pieces! Less variation than e.g. my Selmer Series III tenor and less variation than with my other Conns (that are better with modern pieces than the 12M). I was quite (positively) shocked by this finding, as it proved to me that the design really has no flaws, but most modern pieces are just made for a slightly (or more) different conicity.

I am not playing the piece like this any more, because I wasn’t going for that sound. In fact I put a step baffle in there and eventually had it customized in this direction by Phil Engleman. It’s a wonderful piece now, still good to intonate, but no longer that perfect. Similar to Links or the PPT signature I can play it without intonation issues, in that case meaning that “I have to work and if I found enough time to practice, I can handle it”.

Actually this experience let me rethink my mouthpiece choice on all sax sizes, keeping more track of the intonation tendencies of different designs and avoiding the “intonation traps” of certain setups that fall into place if you practice daily but don’t if you’re an amateur like me and sometimes have to miss out for a while.

 

[r. giuseppe]

The Mark 6 was NOT named after the Conn 6M

I think it was joke, at least it thought it’s really funny…
Of course Marcel Mule would disagree, but there may be a little truth in there, looking at the inventions of the 20er-50ies. Selmer nailed the layout in 40ies/50ies. Everything else was there before, and maybe more so in the American brands.

 

[Pete Thomas]

But the truth is, that this may not really work out for all overtones in a sax that has been tuned in real life conditions (heat, cold, whatever)

Also given that it's a very acoustically imperfect instrument to the missing cone:

Tech/maintenance - A new way to see a saxophone - the missing cone

Notice how the wavelength for the note Ab concert behaves as if it begins at the apex of the "imaginary" missing cone. What a cool instrument we play. The "missing cone" is also longer than the neck itself.

cafesaxophone.com