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Minor chords

TomMapfumo

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I think the trouble with music theory is that it is basically Mathematics/Logic/Science, and little to do with Music/Emotion/Art. Having said that it is an effective cure for Insomnia:crying::ashamed:(!

Kind regards
Tom:cool:
 

Pete C

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My lightbulb moment was the fact and relationship of the degree of the scale being always relevant to that type of scale. Also which scales/chords have the same key signatures, and start at a different part in the scale.
Seems to make everything easier.
The formulae I have given for working out chords work no matter what scale they happen to be drawn from within a particular harmonic setting. eg Cm7 is always C Eb G Bb whether its functioning as a II chord in Bb major a III chord in Ab major or a VI chord in Eb major. What changes in those different keys is the upper extensions of the chord (9th 11th 13th) or looking at it in another way, the passing notes between the chord tones. It's good to learn chord arpeggios separately from the scales you find them in as well as within the context of the scales. But I bang on.....
 

visionari1

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Pete Canter said:
It's good to learn chord arpeggios separately from the scales you find them in as well as within the context of the scales. But I bang on.....
No please bang on:.… it's my opinion that often we don't learn/see something untill we're ready and banging on is often needed.

Cheers
Jimu


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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thehunt

thehunt

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Sorry Pete, did not understand a word of what you have written. Anyway could you make it a bit simpler to understand. Thanks and rgds Phil
The formulae I have given for working out chords work no matter what scale they happen to be drawn from within a particular harmonic setting. eg Cm7 is always C Eb G Bb whether its functioning as a II chord in Bb major a III chord in Ab major or a VI chord in Eb major. What changes in those different keys is the upper extensions of the chord (9th 11th 13th) or looking at it in another way, the passing notes between the chord tones. It's good to learn chord arpeggios separately from the scales you find them in as well as within the context of the scales. But I bang on.....
 
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thehunt

thehunt

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Sorry chaps to ask again but based on what you say YC and Ian

"The two chords you name are dorian minor chords, ie based on the 2nd degree of a major scale. So Cmin7 or C-7 is based on the scale of Bb major and has two flats, Bb and Eb."
( sorry don't know how to takes quotes and block them in) They cannot both be right as YC says think of the Cmin scale and Dorian as two separate scales. But Ian you say that the Cmin scale and Dorian which is based on the second degree of a major scale should only have Bb and Eb, whereas YC says that there is an Ab in the Cmin scale.
Do i think of them as two separate scales ? Getting even more confused now.
Thanks Phil
Taking the Cmi7, perhaps I've got this wrong, but why not think of this as a Cminor chord (which the notation indicates it is) rather than a Dorian based on Bb?
The C minor scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
The Dorian on Bb is C D Eb F G A Bb C (correct?)
Thus in both cases the 7th chord is C Eb G Bb
Or am I missing something? :confused: on a Friday morning (keep thinking this is Saturday!)
Colin
 

half diminished

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Sorry chaps to ask again but based on what you say YC and Ian

"The two chords you name are dorian minor chords, ie based on the 2nd degree of a major scale. So Cmin7 or C-7 is based on the scale of Bb major and has two flats, Bb and Eb."
( sorry don't know how to takes quotes and block them in) They cannot both be right as YC says think of the Cmin scale and Dorian as two separate scales. But Ian you say that the Cmin scale and Dorian which is based on the second degree of a major scale should only have Bb and Eb, whereas YC says that there is an Ab in the Cmin scale.
Do i think of them as two separate scales ? Getting even more confused now.
Thanks Phil
Phil

My post was slightly incomplete, I omitted the natural minor. There are various minor scales eg:

Natural: C D Eb F G Ab Bb (flat 3rd, 6th and 7th) This has Ab in it.

Harmonic: C D Eb F G Ab B (flat 3rd and 6th). Could also be thought of as a Natural Minor scale with a raised 7th.

Melodic: C D Eb F G A B (flat 3rd) ascending (Natural Minor with raised 6th and 7th), C D Eb F G Ab Bb (same as Natural Minor) descending

Dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb (flat 3rd and flat 7th) Based on second degree of a major scale.
 

Nick Cook

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I just noticed there is a book called Music Theory for Dummies. I usually like this series and I had a quick glance through it, it looks good. The problem with most theory books is they get too advanced too quickly, when I'm learning something from scratch I actually like to be treated like a dummy !!
I've just ordered this from Amazon!!
 

Pete C

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Clarification I hope

As pointed out by others, you can find Cm7 lurking in several different scales. The notes of the chord, C Eb G and Bb all occur in Bb major, Ab major, and Eb major. What I am suggesting is that it is good to learn the chord arpeggios for m7 chords (also other common chord types) in all 12 keys so you can play them at the drop of a hat e.g. practise chromatically Cm7 C#m7 Dm7 Ebm7 etc etc, by 4ths Cm7 Fm7 Bbm7 etc and by other transposition intervals BUT ALSO learn all the chords which occur in each major and minor scale as a group of chords e.g. for C major: Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5. For minor scales there will no doubt be some discussion about what type(s) of minor scales to concentrate on, but for jazz I find the chords in Ascending Melodic Minor very handy. Hope that is easier to understand. Pete
 

Fredso

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Music Theory for Dummies

Coming to Music theory as a complete beginner I have found this book useful. It does appear to be aimed mainly at Piano and Guitar but saying that I have found the sections covering building scales and chords very helpful I would recommend this book as a starting point to anyone, like me, who is new to Music Theory.

Ray
 

Semiquaver

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I am not sure it is a good idea to confuse modal scales with chords.

A dorian minor is a scale.

dm7 is a chord.

Yes they are linked but when playing I believe you should keep this in mind.
 

Pete Thomas

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A dorian minor is a scale.

dm7 is a chord.

Yes they are linked but when playing I believe you should keep this in mind.
I have completely changed my mind on this since I taught jazz theory ten years ago. Although it can be a slight shortcut sometimes to use the method of linking modes to chords, I think it is better to learn the chord notes, know what key (or in many tunes a temporary key centre) you are in and connect the chord notes with passing notes if you want to play a scale passage. (Note the if)

Ideally you use a combination of arpeggios, large interval leaps and scales to create a melodic or lyrical impro.

If you start from the standpoint of "modes to fit chords, then it is very tempting to just run up and down the scales. This is especially true in academic situations where students in which a student thinks they will get marks for showing they can "use" the associated scale.

Example:
If you are in the key of C major, and have two chords, say Dm7 and Em7, I like to think you should know the chord notes

D F A C
E G B D

To play a (basic) scale you fill in the passing notes (from a C major scale)

D E F G A B C D
E F G A B C D E

OK, those look the same as the dorian and aeolian modes respectively, but the temptation then is to just use these from the root of the chord upwards.

BUT supposing you want to use a scale on the Em from D down to G:

D C B A G

In this case thinking "Aeolian" is no use at all and in the end this whole system complicates the process of playing more creative impro.

End of rant.
 
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thehunt

thehunt

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Ok guys, thankyou so much, i think i was getting myself confused with my scales and chords. I do understand it now, all i need is to put this into practice. I find that the more i learn the more i want to learn, if that makes sense.
I have ordered the book for dummies, should be arriving today. I'll let you know how it is when i get it.

OG i agree KISS works for me, but i just confused myself unnecessarily.

Thanks again.

Phil

And to think that all this was started by a simple enquiry about how to configure a minor chord.

Always believed in Keep It Simple, Stupid, which is easy for me, as I am stupid. :confused:
 

Semiquaver

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Pete,

I bow to your superior knowledge on this subject, but as a lazy, self taught intermediate, advanced beginner I need to make things easier for myself

I have recently found that if i can link a chord progression to one scale (major,minor or modal) I can free my mind to listen to what sounds good. Yes you are right i do tend to just go up and down scales but more often than not, I can hear a small run that I play, like it and repeat it and then change it slightly. I can hear that if I start on the 3rd or 5th and go up or down I enjoy the phrase. Maybe even the 9th.

When I tried just to play chord notes I struggled to think about what was the 3rd of this chord and then the 7th of the next all in quick tempo. I could not hear what I was playing and my improv suffered. I hit so many wrong notes it was painful. Now that i analyse the ii-V7-I (and similar progressions) and keep to one scale I think I play better. I can release my mind and let my fingers dance on the keys. I can try to invent phrases that sound good. As you say, i need to start the scale at different intervals for each chord but as a personal thing it is still easier.

To sum up i am lazy. I do not study all the chords and have not learnt them off by heart. But I still want to make music. The book was written for me....a dummy.
 

gladsaxisme

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Well all that was like a group of scientist argueing quantum physics to me I'm 2.5 yrs in and quite frankly didn't understnd a word of it.Should I know more about all this at this stage.:crying:
 
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thehunt

thehunt

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Studham Bedfordshire
I've been playing two years this month so would suggest it would help. If you see another thread i wrote in i bought the book music for dummies, which i feel would help. Music is a language and the more you know of it the more you can express yourself, i liken it to your standard language which you learn then to add shade and colourings you learn colloquialisms, accents etc, this is my take on it so yes there are people who are fantastic players but i am sure that even the very best at some time learn their theory. As you can see i am still learning my base language. ( i.e. scales, chords, etc ) but hope to progress onto more developed stuff this coming year. Good luck anyway. Phil
Well all that was like a group of scientist argueing quantum physics to me I'm 2.5 yrs in and quite frankly didn't understnd a word of it.Should I know more about all this at this stage.:crying:
 

Rogerb

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Costa Blanca, Spain
Well, I liken learning music to learning Japanese while trying to work in a Tokyo restaurant ...... you have to grasp, and apply, a new alphabet, grammar and vocabulary while all around you are chattering away about advanced maths, in Japanese :shocked:

As I am also simultaneously, as a 'senior citizen', trying to learn Spanish, I frequently reach information overload !

It's enough for me, for now, to know how to play the notes on the page, make a reasonable sound, at an acceptable speed ..... I doubt I'll ever have time for more than a bit of 'Japanese grammar' ....... I never get even to 'elementary maths'.

One small step at a time, and just keep taking 'em, is my philosophy with sax-playing and learning Spanish. Any faster and I'll fall over and break something :)

Oh, and BTW, for most ....if not all ... of us, it's meant to be FUN!!
 
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Emma

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Cambridge
Hello,

I found this web site with lots of information on scales, chords, practise tips & loads of other stuff. All written in language that even dummies like me can understand. It even has how to work out chords but also tells you what all the chords are for all keys! A treasure trove of theory....

http://www.jazclass.aust.com/courses.htm#2

Emma
 
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