Minor chords

[thehunt]

Got my stupid head on today, can someone enlightne me how to work out chords like
Cmi7, Emi7 etc.
Just getting myself in a muddle and maybe over complicating things.

Is there a book out there that outlines all the different chords and how they are constructed.

Thanks, Phil :welldone

 

[Nick Cook]

Hi Phil, Have you got the ABRSM Jazz Real Book? There's a bit on chords at the front of that I've been looking at (see my latest blog post!!). I think Cmi7 would flatten the 3rd and 7th note of the C Major scale. so you get C, Eb, G, Bb.

But I haven't got the book here, so I might be wrong!!!

 

[half diminished]

Phil

At the risk of getting it wrong (again)……… ;}

The two chords you name are dorian minor chords, ie based on the 2nd degree of a major scale. So Cmin7 or C-7 is based on the scale of Bb major and has two flats, Bb and Eb.

Emin7 would be based on the scale of D major and has two sharps, F# and C#.

As for books, there are loads of options but I reckon you should write them out for yourself, it's a great way to get them in your head. You could maybe start with the major scales and then the dorian minor (II) scales, and dominant 7th scales (V7).

 

[old git]

Phil

At the risk of getting it wrong (again)……… ;}

The two chords you name are dorian minor chords, ie based on the 2nd degree of a major scale. So Cmin7 or C-7 is based on the scale of Bb major and has two flats, Bb and Eb.

Emin7 would be based on the scale of D major and has two sharps, F# and C#.

As for books, there are loads of options but I reckon you should write them out for yourself, it's a great way to get them in your head. You could maybe start with the major scales and then the dorian minor (II) scales, and dominant 7th scales (V7).

Ian,
For the sake of consistency and to add to my total confusion, could you refer to the major scales by their modal title, please? :ashamed

 

[half diminished]

Ian,
For the sake of consistency and to add to my total confusion, could you refer to the major scales by their modal title, please? :ashamed

No need to feel ashamed OG 🙂

I believe you are referring to the Ionian (I) and Mixolydian (V) modes.

Just starting to get to grips with the Lydian mode for use with Black Narcissus for the forthcoming Karen Sharp workshop. Awesome sound with the sharp 4th. Nice.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Is there a book out there that outlines all the different chords and how they are constructed.

I just noticed there is a book called Music Theory for Dummies. I usually like this series and I had a quick glance through it, it looks good. The problem with most theory books is they get too advanced too quickly, when I'm learning something from scratch I actually like to be treated like a dummy !!

 

[davhudson]

Just starting to get to grips with the Lydian mode for use with Black Narcissus for the forthcoming Karen Sharp workshop. Awesome sound with the sharp 4th. Nice.

I am glad you think so. I find the sharpened 4th really offensive to the ear, but I guess I will have to get used to it!

 

[Young Col]

Well there you are Dave. That's why they used to call the augmented 4th/diminished 5th diabolus in musica - the devil in music - because it was so nasty sounding.

 

[Young Col]

Taking the Cmi7, perhaps I've got this wrong, but why not think of this as a Cminor chord (which the notation indicates it is) rather than a Dorian based on Bb?
The C minor scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
The Dorian on Bb is C D Eb F G A Bb C (correct?)
Thus in both cases the 7th chord is C Eb G Bb
Or am I missing something? on a Friday morning (keep thinking this is Saturday!)
Colin

 

[old git]

Hate to disagree with my Zimmer Retainer but traditionally, the Devil's Interval was only heard as a dischord by Devil worshippers.

You never expect the Spanish Inquisition.

 

[half diminished]

Taking the Cmi7, perhaps I've got this wrong, but why not think of this as a Cminor chord (which the notation indicates it is) rather than a Dorian based on Bb?
The C minor scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
The Dorian on Bb is C D Eb F G A Bb C (correct?)
Thus in both cases the 7th chord is C Eb G Bb
Or am I missing something? on a Friday morning (keep thinking this is Saturday!)
Colin

On the basis that in Jazz the chord progression often follows a II V7 I movement and with all three scales containing the same notes, I usually think of C-7 (II), F7 (V7), Bb7 (I) and being in the key of Bb but starting on different 'degrees'.

Also I thought that C minor had a major and not minor 7th (and therefore no Bb) and was referred to C-∆ or Cmin∆ (rather than C-7), the harmonic minor containing Ab both up and down, the melodic only on the down. Or maybe I am wrong here, but I don't think so.

 

[Nick Cook]

Taking the Cmi7, perhaps I've got this wrong, but why not think of this as a Cminor chord (which the notation indicates it is) rather than a Dorian based on Bb?
The C minor scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
The Dorian on Bb is C D Eb F G A Bb C (correct?)
Thus in both cases the 7th chord is C Eb G Bb
Or am I missing something? on a Friday morning (keep thinking this is Saturday!)
Colin

I know I'm just a novice re chords - but that's what I said!!!!

 

[Young Col]

Yes. It depends where you start from. As Phil didn't qualify it I took it literally that Cmi 7 meant the triad from the scale of C minor, built on the tonic (C Eb G) plus the 7th (Bb). If you were in Bb major it would indeed be the II chord (dorian), but would the notation be the same?
Colin

 

[thehunt]

Thanks guys, i was just looking at the chords on some of the pieces for the Karen Sharp workshop. I know my major scales ( well sort of ) and was just getting myself in a muddle, but yr explanations are all clear.
Now where is that mixo dixy olodian inverted ionian doubly, sus chord???
Happy Easter all.
Phil

 

[visionari1]

Phil

The two chords you name are dorian minor chords, ie based on the 2nd degree of a major scale. So Cmin7 or C-7 is based on the scale of Bb major and has two flats, Bb and Eb.

Emin7 would be based on the scale of D major and has two sharps, F# and C#

(V7).

Thanks Ian,

Never looked at it from that angle (doh!) This was a lightbulb moment. So now just work em all out from the scale/root of the majors,… your advice of writing them out is also tops.
Cheers
Jimu

 

[Pete C]

chord formulae

work out any chord by starting with a major scale on the same root:

m7 = R b3 5 b7
maj7 = R 3 5 7
7 = R 3 5 b7
m7b5 = R b3 b5 b7

PS re #11, try playing it against a maj7 chord or a dominant 7 chord and IMHO, it sounds better than the unaltered 11!!

 

[Pete Thomas]

Now where is that mixo dixy olodian inverted ionian doubly, sus chord???

These days I prefer not to think about modes in relation to chord changes. So I wouldn't worry. (Unless it's actually mode based music, ie modal jazz or folk)

 

[visionari1]

work out any chord by starting with a major scale on the same root:

m7 = R b3 5 b7
maj7 = R 3 5 7
7 = R 3 5 b7
m7b5 = R b3 b5 b7

/QUOTE]

Good advice Pete,

My lightbulb moment was the fact and relationship of the degree of the scale being always relevant to that type of scale. Also which scales/chords have the same key signatures, and start at a different part in the scale.
Seems to make everything easier.

 

[Rogerb]

I just noticed there is a book called Music Theory for Dummies. I usually like this series and I had a quick glance through it, it looks good. The problem with most theory books is they get too advanced too quickly, when I'm learning something from scratch I actually like to be treated like a dummy !!

How true, Pete....I have a few theory books , all of which have left me without he will to live after very few pages...... and I don't know why I read threads like this at all ...especially at 2 am.... must be some kind of masochism.

 

[Nick Cook]

I just noticed there is a book called Music Theory for Dummies. I usually like this series and I had a quick glance through it, it looks good. The problem with most theory books is they get too advanced too quickly, when I'm learning something from scratch I actually like to be treated like a dummy !!

I'll have look for that - Hopefully it'll be simple enough for this 'dummy'!!🙂