Mouthpieces Lawton Baffle Measurements

[ccarden]

Has anyone ever measured the baffles, say in a Lawton Tenor 'piece? Or was there ever a chart made? I don't know how to measure them, save for getting depths along the lay, like maybe in 1mm or .5mm increments. That seems very hard to do accurately with a digital caliper or even Theo's depth gauge.

And the laughable thing about Theo's gauge is that you have a highly accurate digital depth gauge mounted on a highly INaccurate block of aluminum, with millimeters marked in paint. So, one axis of precision, and one axis of approximation. I regret buying it. Should have gone for the $30 knockoff on Amazon.

Data or suggestions on the baffle measurement? I am (ahem) ... *baffled*. (sorry)

 

[Ivan]

@rhysonsax has Lawton knowledge, though whether his expertise extends to mouthpiece dimensions, I know not

 

[rhysonsax]

I know that Geoff Lawton use of the same model designations changed over time and that you can find Lawton mouthpieces with the same markings but having different baffle and chamber dimensions.

Having done quite a bit of research on Lawton mouthpieces I put together a website of Lawton history and other information. Lawton Saxophone Mouthpieces History

On the website I have included a timeline of changes to the design of the "Plain" and "Model B" Lawtons:

Timeline of Changes to Plain & Model B​

From 1967 the tenor mouthpiece was offered in two types of tone chamber, the A (standard) and the B with more brightness/edge. The baritone and alto had the standard chamber design.​

​

The B model proved to be more popular and so in the late 60s / early 70s Lawton standardised all three sizes (alto, tenor, baritone) on the popular design which became the new “Plain”.​

​

In 1973 Lawton produced a design with more edge still and this became the “new” B model (tenor first and then alto and baritone a couple of months later), as Geoff said: “with what I consider to possess the maximum edge that I would wish to incorporate into my mouthpieces.”​

​

In 1984 the design of the “Plain” models was changed by using “a slightly lower baffle” and “opening the throat a trifle to give a slightly fuller, darker sound”. This made for a greater difference in sound between the Plain and the B or BB models. The throat modification was also said to help intonation on the soprano.​

Often mouthpiece makers are careful not to give too much information away about the precise design of critical internal areas, particularly the baffle and the chamber. Back in 1972 Frederick Wyman wrote his PhD thesis called "An Acoustical Study of Alto Saxophone Mouthpiece Chamber Design" (available online as a PDF).

That thesis describes in detail how Wyman measured what he called the "roof contour" of 16 alto mouthpieces. He tabulated the results and also presented drawings of each mouthpiece at a scale of 2:1, including cross-sections that show the shape of the baffle, chamber, throat etc.

Although that thesis is 50 years old it is about the best information I am aware of.

Rhys

 

[ccarden]

I know that Geoff Lawton use of the same model designations changed over time and that you can find Lawton mouthpieces with the same markings but having different baffle and chamber dimensions.

Having done quite a bit of research on Lawton mouthpieces I put together a website of Lawton history and other information. Lawton Saxophone Mouthpieces History

On the website I have included a timeline of changes to the design of the "Plain" and "Model B" Lawtons:

Timeline of Changes to Plain & Model B​

From 1967 the tenor mouthpiece was offered in two types of tone chamber, the A (standard) and the B with more brightness/edge. The baritone and alto had the standard chamber design.​

​

The B model proved to be more popular and so in the late 60s / early 70s Lawton standardised all three sizes (alto, tenor, baritone) on the popular design which became the new “Plain”.​

​

In 1973 Lawton produced a design with more edge still and this became the “new” B model (tenor first and then alto and baritone a couple of months later), as Geoff said: “with what I consider to possess the maximum edge that I would wish to incorporate into my mouthpieces.”​

​

In 1984 the design of the “Plain” models was changed by using “a slightly lower baffle” and “opening the throat a trifle to give a slightly fuller, darker sound”. This made for a greater difference in sound between the Plain and the B or BB models. The throat modification was also said to help intonation on the soprano.​

Often mouthpiece makers are careful not to give too much information away about the precise design of critical internal areas, particularly the baffle and the chamber. Back in 1972 Frederick Wyman wrote his PhD thesis called "An Acoustical Study of Alto Saxophone Mouthpiece Chamber Design" (available online as a PDF).

That thesis describes in detail how Wyman measured what he called the "roof contour" of 16 alto mouthpieces. He tabulated the results and also presented drawings of each mouthpiece at a scale of 2:1, including cross-sections that show the shape of the baffle, chamber, throat etc.

Although that thesis is 50 years old it is about the best information I am aware of.

Rhys

Dr. Wyman's thesis is great, especially for the time it was written. That was a great idea on how to scale the increments to measure the baffle/roof. I just took measurements of my 10 Star BB:

All measurements in mm
dT = distance from the inside edge of the tip rail
dR = distance between table plane and roof

dT | dR
-1 | 0.135 (frontal rail)
0 | 0.130 (tip rail)
1 | 0.131
2 | 0.132
3 | 0.141
6 | 0.154
9 | 0.171
12 | 0.191
18 | 0.220
24 | 0.250

 

[rhysonsax]

Dr. Wyman's thesis is great, especially for the time it was written. That was a great idea on how to scale the increments to measure the baffle/roof. I just took measurements of my 10 Star BB:

All measurements in mm
dT = distance from the inside edge of the tip rail
dR = distance between table plane and roof

dT | dR
-1 | 0.135 (frontal rail)
0 | 0.130 (tip rail)
1 | 0.131
2 | 0.132
3 | 0.141
6 | 0.154
9 | 0.171
12 | 0.191
18 | 0.220
24 | 0.250

That's interesting. Have you drawn the contour up to scale, maybe using a spreadsheet and its graphing capability ?

Does your Lawton 10 Star BB have a bullet chamber with a sharp edge to the bullet or is it more blended (soft edge to the bullet) ?

Some of the Lawton ICON tenor pieces I have are BB models but the baffle and chamber shape is quite different to the standard BB Lawtons.

Rhys

 

[Phil]

I bet they are all different if he play tested each piece.