Tech/maintenance Just a general question to sax maintainers and repairers

[MikeMorrell]

Hi, and many thanks to any members who respond!

My question is whether I should give my Tenor Sax a complete overhaul (very probably!) and if so, whether I should look for a sax repairer who has specific knowledge, skills and reputation of overhauling 'vintage saxophones'.

TBH, I've asked questions on this topic to 'Google AI' and I've got some valuable responses. For example, the difference between 'regular sax maintenance' and 'complete overhauls'. Down to which local 'repairers' would be best qualified to overhaul my specific sax and the questions that I should ask them beforehand! All based on my specific Tenor sax model and year. Another 'Google AI' conclusion was that - on average - periodic 'minor sax maintenance' should be done every 1-2 years. And a 'major overhaul' might be needed every 5-10 years. My sax has had neither in 20 years!

So what I would like from experienced. informed and human sax repairers are their opinions on the answers that I got from Google AI based on the 'background 'below.

Background
I bought my 1961 'Buffet Crampon Super Dynaction' Tenor Sax about 20 years ago. At that time, it had been thoroughly 'checked out' and played easily in comparison to other 'vintage saxes' that I tried out. In the 20 years since, I've had a few minor 'playing problems' quickly inspected and fixed' by my local 'clarinet/sax' lady. Usually free of charge. But in these 20 years, my sax has never had 'periodic maintenance' or 'overhauls'

Lately (for the past 6 months or more), I've been really struggling to play my sax. With certain notes (G/G# in the higher octave) 'squeaking'. In my local sax lady's opinion (within 5 minutes) she said that the 2 octave keys worked fine mechanically. So that any 'squeaks' were probably due to my 'embouchure'. Which hasn't changed in many years.

A new Tenor Sax player recently joined my Big Band. He had sax that looked to me 'unusual'. I asked him what it what it was and said it was a John Packer JP042 Bb Tenor. He explained that it was a 'temporary sax' while he was getting his Yamaha 'restored'. He added that he wasn't yet sure which one he'd stick with. With his permission I briefly tried out his sax with my mpc and reed. TBH the 'playability' of his (new) sax with mine was a huge difference between day (his) and night (mine)!

Yes I fully realize that the 'ergonomics' of saxes has moved on significantly between 1961 and the first mention of the John Packer JP042 on the cafe in 2011.

I 'Googled (AI)' my problem and it's advice (with recommendations) was to have my Tenor Sax refurbished (overhauled) by someone who has the 'credibility' of restoring 'vintage' (1961) saxes.

 

[Reedswinds]

If you are still on the same pad set for 20 years and playing regularly I would suggest you have it looked at, pads arent meant to last forever. It may be time to replace them all of at the very least quite a few, and your mechanism most likely needs to be tightened up. As far as who to use, I don't follow other techs to know who to use, where you are. There's are some techs that work on everything and do have the skill set to do what you need. I use to be one before I focused on just single reeds, but working on brass and other woodwinds still developed skills that carried over to my specialty. I was able to flip to switch mentally from fast repairs to doing the 40hr + overhauls, but many techs can not, or are not in a position that allows it. On the flip side there are some great specialists, and some very bad ones. I would suggest asking around to some advanced players in your area, and see if any names keep coming up. Vintage instruments can be very demanding and not everyone is familiar with the older mechanisms.

 

[Pete Thomas]

First off AI doesn't own or play saxophones and has never visited a tech and playtested their instrument afterwards. It will be pulling "advice" from all over the place and much of it likely to be biased or just plain slop.

An overhaul is probably necessary if you buy something used, and most of the pads are shot, springs are knackered, corks are rotten, lots of excess play in the keywork and unlevel toneholes.

Most of the time I would just

1. get the horn in top playing condition by doing just what's necessary as opposed to:
2. a complete overhaul

(1) could be replacing some pads, fettling some corks and replacing the odd spring. An honest tech will evaluate what needs doing and letting you know if this is better value for you than a total overhaul which by definition replaces all pads, corks, springs, not just those that are shot or look like they are well on the way to being shot. It may also include levelling toneholes and swaging to deal with sloppythe key action.

If done well, just doing what's necessary means the horn will play as well as it can and probably stay in top playing condition as long as it would if it had been overhauled. If the quote for doing this is almost as much as an overhaul, then yes get an overhaul, but often it may be less than half the price of a complete overhaul.

I'm sure or resident techs, Den Tedbell, Rod Bender, and Lee Klite, will give some more thorough answers, the above is just my opinion as player.

 

[JayeNM]

not certain what the point of asking AI something like this would be ? I mean I assume you have had your horn serviced repeatedly and you and your techs know it better than AI, yes ?

So...

It's giving you problems ? Notes not speaking cleanly ? Has a tech ascertained that there are multiple maladies going on ? Saying 'it's your embouchure' is a bit ridiculous of a tech unless they literally leak lighted the entire horn and found no significant leaks.

Are the pads all older, or a mix of old and new ? IOW have you had pads replaced in those twenty years ?

Is it getting grungy, inside and/or out ?

Has it sustained body damage beyond just dings ?

 

[JayeNM]

First of AI doesn't own or play saxophones and has never visited a tech and playtested their instrument afterwards. IT will be pulling "advice" from all over the place and much of it likely to be biased or just plain slop.

An overhaul is probably necessary if you buy something used, and most of the pads are shot, springs are knackered, corks are rotten, lots of excess play in the keywork and unlevel toneholes.

Most of the time I would just

1. get the horn in top playing condition by doing just what's necessary as opposed to:
2. a complete overhaul

(1) could be replacing some pads, fettling some corks and replacing the odd spring. An honest tech will evaluate what needs doing and letting you know if this is better value for you than a total overhaul which by definition replaces all pads, corks, springs, not just those that are shot or look like they are well on the way to being shot. It may also include levelling toneholes

If done well, just doing what's necessary means the horn will play as well as it can

Everything he just wrote

 

[JayeNM]

Consider what an overhaul consists of -

Disassembly, chem or sonic bath, soap clean, probably a hand polish, dent repair, tonehole leveling, all new pads/corks/felts, rod cleaning and truing, key swedging, lubing, key regulation, reassembly.

I probably forgot a couple things.

Generally, for me....IF...

- More than 8 pads need replacing (this doesn't mean 'they LOOK OLD'...it means they aren't sealing reliably and a quick attempt to make them, either by cup bending or a refoat or shim....still results in an iffy seal). Techs LOVE to say 'needs a repad !" when the pads clearly have some years on them....

-I see key play

-It's pretty grungy

I will suggest a full overhaul as one servicing option. But I will also suggest lesser scope options if I think those options can get it playing reliably for the next year or so.

IF your horn speaks fine except for the G2/G#2 squeak.....it doesn't 'need' an overhaul. If however, it does have a lotta leaks, then maybeeeeeee.....

 

[JayeNM]

I'm sure our resident techs, Den Tedbell, Rod Bender, and Lee Klite, will give some more thorough answers, the above is just my opinion as player.

Did Paul Down retire....???

 

[Woodpad]

Buffet Crampon is a decent brand and the 20 years confirm that. I expect that most pads are still reasonable but there could be some pin sized leaks. I know the oboe/clarinet sax lady and if she says that the octave mechanism is alright I believe that. I live in the neighborhood and can visit if you need a second opinion.

 

[Stephen Howard]

I get queries like this all the time - and my answer is always the same; "Possibly...I dunno until I see it".

I've had to do major work on horns that are less than ten years old - and I've also only needed to do minor servicing on horns that are knocking on 70 years old. It all depends on how much use they've seen and whether the owner has carried out any preventative maintenance (cleaning, oiling etc.) - or whether they've had it regularly (and properly) serviced in the meantime.

'Overhaul' is a word that's chucked about pretty freely, but I actually do very few complete overhauls. A much more common job for me is what I call an 'Underhaul' - which is basically all about getting the mechanics bang on and keeping pad/cork replacement down to a minimum. I see way, way too many horns with shiny new pads that leak all over the place because the action's worn to hell and the toneholes are decidedly wonky.
I also rarely touch original springs unless they're rusted to hell. You cannot beat vintage springs...they just don't make them like that anymore, and they often have a lifespan that exceeds yours or mine.

I can absolutely guarantee that your horn needs a damn good going over - but doesn't mean it needs a complete overhaul.
To get the definitive answer you'll need to take it to a repairer.
No point trusting AI with stuff like this - it just regurgitates what it's told and does so with scant context. Ask around locally, talk to other players - get a handful of recommendations then do some research of your own.

You should expect a repairer to happily examine your horn, explain and point out what's wrong with it, suggest some options with regard to a course of action...and then let you walk away without any obligation.
If you're offered any less than that, walk away anyway.
And expect to have to wait some time for the work to be carried out. Any repairer that has a good reputation will be very busy indeed - so there'll be a queue.

I'm a bit sniffy about so-called 'vintage specialisation' because I use the same techniques on a horn that was built in the early 1900s as I do on one that was built last week. Yeah, you have to take a few differences into account (key layout, working key heights, known issues with particular horns) but by and large it's all about the judicial application of set techniques.

 

[turf3]

I have had better experiences, I think, since I've started making it clear that I don't require a super short turnaround and that it's more important that the job be done right than to save 10 bucks. (I don't know exactly the phrasing I've used; but my point is that this is a job where the customer is an experienced adult with standards - it's not just "can you make the thing sort of play so Johnny can do the football game day after tomorrow, and for less tha $20?")

Vintage horns and current production ones all work pretty much the same way. Rather than "vintage specialization" what I run into is "modern specialization" where they don't want to do any thinking, just crank out the same exact tasks on the same exact Selmer copies and Yamaha 21/23 horns over and over. Those are the ones that'll tell you "oh this thing is obsolete you need to buy a new horn" or thye'll quote you $1500 for a playing condition service. They just don't want to deal with anything the least bit different. Those are who you want to avoid.

 

[skeller047]

I know nothing of repair persons in Scandinavia - or for that matter, anywhere besides the SF Bay Area, and maybe a little about Boston and NYC.

BUT - I am sure I could find out in a day or two who to go to. The way to do that is go to a few night clubs that feature jazz or funk music, and ask the sax players who are working there who THEY use. I would never ask AI for this information.

@MikeMorrell - do you have a leak light? Do you know enough about how your instrument works to diagnose it? Things like stack regulation and lost motion are pretty easy to figure out just by watching the keys move as you press them. Pad condition is also easy to observe. Leaks, you need the light. But I do recommend most players learn how to diagnose these things. Not to fix them, but just to be able to communicate with your tech.

I recommend you visit your regular “sax/clarinet lady”, tell her your experience with the John Packer horn, and have her thoroughly inspect your horn. While you are there. Have her explain what she finds. If your horn needs major work, maybe you should rent a horn for a month so you can do your band performances.

 

[Reedswinds]

I have had better experiences, I think, since I've started making it clear that I don't require a super short turnaround and that it's more important that the job be done right than to save 10 bucks. (I don't know exactly the phrasing I've used; but my point is that this is a job where the customer is an experienced adult with standards - it's not just "can you make the thing sort of play so Johnny can do the football game day after tomorrow, and for less tha $20?")

Vintage horns and current production ones all work pretty much the same way. Rather than "vintage specialization" what I run into is "modern specialization" where they don't want to do any thinking, just crank out the same exact tasks on the same exact Selmer copies and Yamaha 21/23 horns over and over. Those are the ones that'll tell you "oh this thing is obsolete you need to buy a new horn" or thye'll quote you $1500 for a playing condition service. They just don't want to deal with anything the least bit different. Those are who you want to avoid.

Very true. They often haven't been exposed to many vintage mechanisms either, and have parts available to them for whatever they do work on. Becase of that, they have yet to develop the ability to fabricate, or problem solve and understand unfamiliar mechanisms on the fly. I have run into this a lot with recent graduates and newer techs I have mentored. They seem have learned a lotto what to do in school, without the why, that allows them to think through what they are observing.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

High School and College music programs, talk to those that run them, for competent techs.

 

[Pete Thomas]

If you are still on the same pad set for 20 years and playing regularly I would suggest you have it looked at, pads arent meant to last forever.

No they are consumables. However nearly all the pads on my tenor have been on there at least since I bought it 35 years ago.

That's right - handmade by Fredrick Gregory. The telephone number 906 2546 would appear to predate the London 01 code which dates it back to before 1959. Even if the 01 is assumed because of the word London, it would predate the time when London codes were split into and would have to have had one or the other - so that makes it pre1990 which is just before I bought the horn.

 

[Stephen Howard]

No they are consumables. However nearly all the pads on my tenor have been on there at least since I bought it 35 years ago.


That's right - handmade by Fredrick Gregory. The telephone number 906 2546 would appear to predate the London 01 code which dates it back to before 1959. Even if the 01 is assumed because of the word London, it would predate the time when London codes were split into and would have to have had one or the other - so that makes it pre1990 which is just before I bought the horn.

I still work on horns that have Gordon Beeson pads that are in good nick. Some of those go back to the '60s.
Mind you, my PL YAS-62 still has some original Yamaha pads on it. An awful lot depends on how wet a player you are. Some can trash an upper stack in three years or so.

 

[Reedswinds]

NOW THATS COOL. I have some plain ole B52's on my Martin that are around 20 years old, look very good, but need replacing. To be fair it was my one and only gigging horn for that whole time and saw around 14hr a week of playing, between working on parts at home gigging and band practice. Including beer and food blown on them, both on gigs and practice. (I should know better, but do it anyway) . Is that the Alt F#?