Intonation How to play the saxophone in tune

[Dr G]

In the past it has been kind of strange how in Internet forums, I explain how I keep in tune, then receive a cockamamie explanation from some well to do that I am doing it wrong to be followed up by some clarinetist prima donna chiming in.

OK, let’s hear both sides of it then figure out which of you makes more sense.

What was her objection to your technique?

 

[Pete Effamy]

Often, people seem to talk about playing in tune as though the norm is playing with a string quartet - you know, the old Eb in C minor is flatter than when it’s the root in Eb major etc.

Well, it’s not the norm.

If you play with a piano, you have that to contend with - stretch tuning maybe.

And if there are synths, they often present to the ear as being flat higher up.

Guitars - move about chordally and they will be a bit here and there too.

So, who’s in tune? Piano, guitar (mostly, bar a slightly stretched string), electronic keyboard, organ will remain wherever they start from. We, along with other reeds and brass, strings can move about. Tuning won’t sound best as a fixed measurement, but depending upon the arrangement and what is high or low at any given point will affect our tuning and what will fit.

Perhaps that’s the definition of being in tune - what fits. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

[Targa]

Often, people seem to talk about playing in tune as though the norm is playing with a string quartet - you know, the old Eb in C minor is flatter than when it’s the root in Eb major etc.

Well, it’s not the norm.

If you play with a piano, you have that to contend with - stretch tuning maybe.

And if there are synths, they often present to the ear as being flat higher up.

Guitars - move about chordally and they will be a bit here and there too.

So, who’s in tune? Piano, guitar (mostly, bar a slightly stretched string), electronic keyboard, organ will remain wherever they start from. We, along with other reeds and brass, strings can move about. Tuning won’t sound best as a fixed measurement, but depending upon the arrangement and what is high or low at any given point will affect our tuning and what will fit.

Perhaps that’s the definition of being in tune - what fits. 🤷🏻‍♂️

That brings the thought that AI will not sound like real music unless it can incorporate that slightly out of tune reality.

 

[skeller047]

That brings the thought that AI will not sound like real music unless it can incorporate that slightly out of tune reality.

To sound “real”, AI will have to correctly predict how sharp the lead trumpet is. Which includes things like the time of day, 1st or last set (or one in between), and the alcohol/drug blood levels of the player.

 

[ghostler]

So, who’s in tune? Piano, guitar (mostly, bar a slightly stretched string), electronic keyboard, organ will remain wherever they start from. We, along with other reeds and brass, strings can move about. Tuning won’t sound best as a fixed measurement, but depending upon the arrangement and what is high or low at any given point will affect our tuning and what will fit. Perhaps that’s the definition of being in tune - what fits. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Where we had an acoustic piano, then it became the basis for tuning. Nice thing about today's modern electronic pianos and keyboards is the ability to tune them to them to the basis standard, in this case the piano.

Our leadership had a policy of "hurry up and wait". @Tuppertn would know what I mean. 😉 So it wasn't unusual we had a bit more time on our hands than say, for a regular gigging musician to set up and tune.

I remember in the olden days we had a metal 440 Hertz tuning fork, a standard to tune to. They were more common 50 years ago. You hardly ever see those these days. Maybe the piano tuners still use those. I really don't know.

In the community band about 10 years ago, seemed the trombones loved to play sharp. Occasionally the tenor saxes and sometimes alto saxes had to play in unison or harmony with them. Thus a few times us saxes had to play a touch sharp. Some have moved on, the current trombonists we have are better at playing in tune.

To sound “real”, AI will have to correctly predict how sharp the lead trumpet is. Which includes things like the time of day, 1st or last set (or one in between), and the alcohol/drug blood levels of the player.

I don't think AI would ever be able to truly mimic a "sauced" player. They do a fine enough job on their own. 😒

 

[thomsax]

I remember in the olden days we had a metal 440 Hertz tuning fork, a standard to tune to. They were more common 50 years ago. You hardly ever see those these days. Maybe the piano tuners still use those. I really don't know.

The set of of tunning forks, just a=440HZ is not enogh, is important for a piano techs. A grand piano in Sweden is often tuned higher than A = 440 Hz. The A = 442 or A = 443 Hz tuning forks are often used in concert venues.

I use to practice a tuning note just with the mouthpiece+reed. I learned to get used to how a D (baritone) and G (tenor) sounds and to remember the tone. That is the ground tone. A kind of feeling as well ..... . I still play my ground/root notes.

When I played in bands or with a group, I just put the mouthpiece on the neck and played some chords , licks and tried and fit in. I play electric blues, R&B, rockabilly, rock & roll .......

 

[Pete Effamy]

That brings the thought that AI will not sound like real music unless it can incorporate that slightly out of tune reality.

Pretty easy ask I’d say. Drum software has a “random” button for time, tone, velocity, tuning of any drum hit sample including left / right hands and different samples.

Strings have a “round robin” of samples and tuning etc

The latest big band software sounds are pretty good mostly, and very good sometimes.

 

[mizmar]

To sound “real”, AI will have to correctly predict how sharp the lead trumpet is. Which includes things like the time of day, 1st or last set (or one in between), and the alcohol/drug blood levels of the player.

Which would be much easier to teach AI than program in to, for example, a synth or (classical) sound engine. As I argued in The AI thread, "classical" algorithms use equations, heuristics and whatever exceptions the developer cares about. A neutral net is like a very high dimensional fit over the whole problem space; given enough data (ey and there's the rub) it can take onto account any number of foibles and idiosyncrasies.

 

[turf3]

In the modern real world, I am almost always playing with an electronic keyboard, which can be expected to be dead on. Everyone else generally tunes to A=440. In that world the only thing that makes my mouthpiece shift meaningfully from the line on the cork is temperature.

If the keyboard instrument is an actual piano, everyone tunes to the piano. Guitars and bass get one string in tune with the piano and then tune the rest to that.

All the business about "oh, it's just intonation versus equal versus this or that" is mostly, in my opinion, people playing out of tune and then making a pseudo-sciency stab in the dark to try to shuck their way out of it.

 

[Dr G]

Now that we’ve accumulated 7+ pages of “How to tune”, I’d like to address “How to stay in tune”.

My suggestion is to listen. Listen constantly. Pitch centers in a section may drift. Listen for it. If you hear one person going off pitch, bring their attention to it. Taking a suggestion from “The Inner Game of Music”, rather than tell a person that they are sharp/flat as one might instruct a beginning band class, bring their attention to the fact that some pitches sound “off”. Mindfulness is necessary to staying in tune.

 

[turf3]

Now that we’ve accumulated 7+ pages of “How to tune”, I’d like to address “How to stay in tune”.

My suggestion is to listen. Listen constantly. Pitch centers in a section may drift. Listen for it. If you hear one person going off pitch, bring their attention to it. Taking a suggestion from “The Inner Game of Music”, rather than tell a person that they are sharp/flat as one might instruct a beginning band class, bring their attention to the fact that some pitches sound “off”. Mindfulness is necessary to staying in tune.

Yes, and BLOW. When I hear beginners' videos all pitchy, they're never supporting enough either. When I hear professional saxophonists, they provide sufficient support. With proper airstream, the input pitch comes down, you can push in (which in itself fixes a lot of issues) and the thing just plays better in tune. There has to be a certain amount of energy put into the standing wave in the air column for it to find the resonant frequency established by the tube and tone holes, otherwise it's not stable or "centered/slotted".

 

[ghostler]

Pretty easy ask I’d say. Drum software has a “random” button for time, tone, velocity, tuning of any drum hit sample including left / right hands and different samples.

I have noticed in various churches I have attended, that their worship band has a clear plexiglass cage surrounding the acoustic drummer. This tells me that the drummer has absolutely no control, plays heavy metal rock style no matter the genre. (Maybe they ought to allow their high schooler in band be their drummer instead of that adult?)

Would changing the drum heads to these help to tone down the drums for such without ruining it musically? (If you call smashing drum heads with sticks music.)

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Amazon photo.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Didn't the drummer in the Crickets play cardboard boxes on one recording and his legs on another. In a video of The Mound City Blowers the percussionist is playing luggage.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I have noticed in various churches I have attended, that their worship band has a clear plexiglass cage surrounding the acoustic drummer. This tells me that the drummer has absolutely no control, plays heavy metal rock style no matter the genre. (Maybe they ought to allow their high schooler in band be their drummer instead of that adult?)

Would changing the drum heads to these help to tone down the drums for such without ruining it musically? (If you call smashing drum heads with sticks music.)

Amazon.com: 5-Piece Silent Mesh Drum Head Set, Double-Layer Mesh with Alloy Frame for Low-Volume Practice, 10/12/14/16/20 in : Musical Instruments

Buy 5-Piece Silent Mesh Drum Head Set, Double-Layer Mesh with Alloy Frame for Low-Volume Practice, 10/12/14/16/20 in: Drumheads - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

View attachment 31737
Amazon photo.

Well yes there are different sizes of each drum, and a jazz kit might well be several inches smaller per drum than a rock kit - but mostly it’s just the concept of how they are hit.

Steve Gadd barely tickles the drums these days but still sounds great. Buddy Rich was far from quiet.

Sounds like the drummer in your example is myopic in “his” thing and is not changing his playing for the style / circumstances / situation.

 

[Dr G]

I have noticed in various churches I have attended, that their worship band has a clear plexiglass cage surrounding the acoustic drummer. This tells me that the drummer has absolutely no control, plays heavy metal rock style no matter the genre. (Maybe they ought to allow their high schooler in band be their drummer instead of that adult?)

Would changing the drum heads to these help to tone down the drums for such without ruining it musically? (If you call smashing drum heads with sticks music.)

No. A clear plexiglas cage does NOT imply that the drummer has no control. It implies that the sound engineer is attempting to control bleed from the drums into the house mix.

 

[Pete Thomas]

That brings the thought that AI will not sound like real music unless it can incorporate that slightly out of tune reality.

Which it can easily do. After all it isn’t artificial stupidity 🙂

 

[Targa]

Which it can easily do. After all it isn’t artificial stupidity 🙂

That's a matter of opinion.

 

[ghostler]

Sounds like the drummer in your example is myopic in “his” thing and is not changing his playing for the style / circumstances / situation.

That is what I gather. Here, we are speaking of small congregational churches. Even in the largest, they are lucky to have a Sunday morning attendance of 100. Worship band is more like a small club band, not a big city church production.

I appreciate it when one has a skilled drummer at the set. He/she plays smoothly, finese in drum rolls, and etc. But when dealing with amateur volunteers, yes, some seem to have their own mind set. That's why I say that maybe they ought to get an upcoming high schooler who is learning the art, can do a bit of justice at the trap set. Plus, make them feel appreciated.

And regarding Buddy Holly, back some 40 years ago with the 300th Army Band, Bell, CA (east LA area), we had 2 drummers. One was a gigger in the LA club circuits. He seemed to know only 2 drum volumes - loud, and louder. There was female that I enjoyed when she sat on the trap set during stage band. She had control and finese.

Left the area because of a job change. About a decade later, looked up their leadership on their webpage. She was now their first sergeant, the top sergeant, the enlisted bandleader. I felt that she earned and deserved it.

 

[Pete Effamy]

That is what I gather. Here, we are speaking of small congregational churches. Even in the largest, they are lucky to have a Sunday morning attendance of 100. Worship band is more like a small club band, not a big city church production.

I appreciate it when one has a skilled drummer at the set. He/she plays smoothly, finese in drum rolls, and etc. But when dealing with amateur volunteers, yes, some seem to have their own mind set. That's why I say that maybe they ought to get an upcoming high schooler who is learning the art, can do a bit of justice at the trap set. Plus, make them feel appreciated.

And regarding Buddy Holly, back some 40 years ago with the 300th Army Band, Bell, CA (east LA area), we had 2 drummers. One was a gigger in the LA club circuits. He seemed to know only 2 drum volumes - loud, and louder. There was female that I enjoyed when she sat on the trap set during stage band. She had control and finese.

Left the area because of a job change. About a decade later, looked up their leadership on their webpage. She was now their first sergeant, the top sergeant, the enlisted bandleader. I felt that she earned and deserved it.

Music making is a funny ole thing. After we decide whether we like the others on the bandstand or not, we can still develop a musical loathing toward anyone.

 

[ghostler]

Music making is a funny ole thing. After we decide whether we like the others on the bandstand or not, we can still develop a musical loathing toward anyone.

People are people. It takes a world to make up all types.

Which reminds me, LA is a tough place for a musician to make a living. Cost of housing is very expensive. A cheap place puts one in oft an undesirable neighborhood. We had 3 gigging musicians, a flutist, a saxist and a drummer carving out a living there. At one time we had a 4th, a trumpeter. Being prior service, our reservist band was a good way for them to supplement their income plus earn a small retirement if they stuck with it.

I mentioned this before, but we had also 9 former junior and high school band teachers that transitioned to math and science, because the Calfornia school systems demanded too much from them. The extracurricular after school hours took away much from family life, which the pay didn't adequately compensate. Our band was a way for them to express their musicianship. We had a lot of good talent, times were good.

This past Sunday's Christmas concert for our community band, a new tenor saxist was next to me, a high schooler, made the 2 previous rehearsals. It brought back a deja vu moment. I was in the same seat as him in the late 1960's as a high schooler. For him, some of the music he did not rehearse with the high school band, was more or less sight reading. I was there 5 and a half decades ago. He's on the way to a skill that will stay with him for the rest of his life.

At the end, our conductor asked those who made or were part of an All State Band (high schoolers specially selected in a state to make up this special performance concert band) to stand up. He referred to Lubbock, Texas and Albuquerque, New Mexico, depending on where the band members live. (We border Texas, so have band members from both states.) Steve, a retiree on bass clarinet stood up. Others stood up from high school to retired. I decided to stand up. I was in an All State Band back in the early 1970's - Honolulu, Hawaii, played clarinet.