Saxophone beginners How is a Jazz Standard Ballad different from other pop ballads ?

[saxofiend]

Hi all ,

Long ago when my face was not like a prune and my knees did not sing like a drunk piano in the morning , I came across a smallbook of ‘ Jazz Standards ‘ .

e.g. mean to me , try a little tenderness , east of the sun and west of the moon, honeysuckle rose etc....with words under the notes .

So to my beginner thinking it seems like these Jazz standards were just normal ballads with chords named above the long notes .I know awesome players improvise etc... BUT so do other musicians who do not call themselves Jazz players .

1. If Jazz Ballads are the same as normal ballads then does this mean an expert / pro can make a jazz standard ballad out of a Justin Bieber song or ANY song at all ?

2. OR is the ballad altered in some way to fit a certain structure ( like blues ) ....be kind my knowledge is practically zero .

3. If Jazz ballads are played the same way as a non Jazz player , whatexactly makes a Jazz player a Jazz player ?

4. Is the genre Jazz really that different from a ballad played soulfully etc..

The only observation I have is that the wordswere amazing in the Jazz Standards book .

5. Is it fair to say that any sad , moody , emotional ballad is a ‘ blues standard ‘ ?

Kind wishes ,

 

[jbtsax]

Everything you always wanted to know about "jazz standards" and more. 😉 Jazz Standards (including ballads)

 

[saxofiend]

Everything you always wanted to know about "jazz standards" and more. 😉 Jazz Standards (including ballads)

Omg ! That is a SERIOUS source of info ! Thk u for showing it to me , I would have never known of such a wonderful resource !kind wishes .

 

[Colin the Bear]

My understanding is that a standard is a song that has been played/sung so many times that it becomes recognised as standard repertoire. That is to say musicians/singers of that genre will know it.
Jazz standards are standards that fall into the jazz genre. Either by original composition or by being adopted by arrangement. This usually means extended chords and possibly chords in a progression that exceeds simple harmony.
A ballad played soulfully could be folk/classical/ pop/soul/world music.
It's all just music.

 

[6441]

Hello again, @saxofiend. What usually places a song in a genre (jazz, blues, rock, country...) is the arrangement. The arrangement includes the harmony, that is the chords, the rhythm, and the instruments. So most any composed music can be played as any genre. To me, and just me, what makes it jazz is the improvisation at performance. However, you could play a song with a jazz arrangement that has no improvisation. For example, many Frank Sinatra recordings are in the jazz idiom, recorded with an orchestra backing music and the little flutes phrases and horn section stuff when he's not singing are written by the arranger.

What's New was first sung by Bing Crosby in 1939. It was Ballad of the Month here a while back. I recorded a reggae version. Is it jazz? Funny thing, if you listen at low volume, you can't hear the drums and it sounds like Bing could have sung over it in 1939 with the rhythm doubled!

https://soundcloud.com/randulo%2Fwhatnewreggae

View: https://soundcloud.com/randulo/whatnewreggae

 

[saxofiend]

Hello again, @saxofiend. What usually places a song in a genre (jazz, blues, rock, country...) is the arrangement. The arrangement includes the harmony, that is the chords, the rhythm, and the instruments. So most any composed music can be played as any genre. To me, and just me, what makes it jazz is the improvisation at performance. However, you could play a song with a jazz arrangement that has no improvisation. For example, many Frank Sinatra recordings are in the jazz idiom, recorded with an orchestra backing music and the little flutes phrases and horn section stuff when he's not singing are written by the arranger.

What's New was first sung by Bing Crosby in 1939. It was Ballad of the Month here a while back. I recorded a reggae version. Is it jazz? Funny thing, if you listen at low volume, you can't hear the drums and it sounds like Bing could have sung over it in 1939 with the rhythm doubled!

https://soundcloud.com/randulo%2Fwhatnewreggae

View: https://soundcloud.com/randulo/whatnewreggae

As is usual for you , a clear detailed explanation .Awesome ! Many thanks and kind wishes .

 

[JayeNM]

Well, just adding to the good replies above...a large number of jazz standards WERE pop tunes in their day.

Add to that, pop at one point WAS jazz.

But for example, a lot of 'jazz standards' are show tunes...Gershwin, Porter, etc...they were written for musicals, they were not written as 'jazz' tunes, necessarily.

Occasionally current jazz vocalists will take a show tune froma contemporary musical and do a jazz rendition of it. The tradition lives on, albeit certainly not as prevalent as it was in the 50's-60's.

Their forms were only rearranged slightly by various jazz artists. So, no, a jazz ballad does not necessarily refer to a tune with a specific form.

Can a pop tune today be arranged as a jazz tune ? Certainly.

Can a pop ballad today be arranged as a jazz ballad ? Certainly.

Back in the 90's I think, Herbie Hancock released an album called something like The New Standard, which were simply jazz versions of pop tunes which hadn't really been given that treatment before.

It was only quasi-good, IMHO. But it's an example of how this can be done.

 

[ellinas]

A Jazz ballad ... being .. jazz ... among other feelings.. contains risk... it's in a way uncertain.
A pop ballad is a pop ballad 🙂

 

[jbtsax]

Several well known jazz players recorded songs and albums drawing from "popular music". This is one of my favorites. Of course Paul has to play it "his way" by adding 2 counts to each measure. 🙂

 

[Pete Thomas]

I tend to differentiate between standards and jazz standards in that a standard was not written for jazz, could have been a show tune or just a popular song of the day. (waht is sometimes called the Great American Songbook)

Some standards are used as vehicles for jazz. But many aren't. There are always exceptions to this, but I bet you won't find many jazz versions of Putting on the Ritz or You'll never Walk Alone (unless its' by Trimmy) compared with Misty or Loverman. A lot of Ellington tunes are what I would call crossover, in that Ellington was that verey rare thing, popular Jazz.

But to me the jazz standard is a different animal in that it was written specifically for jazz performance. In this regard there are fewer ballads, but there are some such as I Remember Clifford.

 

[Colin the Bear]

For me the beauty of a good song/tune is it's flexibility to be played in any style or genre.
Jazz is such a broad church. From simple easy listening to complicated, demanding cacophony.
A ballad to me means a song with a story but it's often taken to mean anything played sadly or slow.

 

[rhysonsax]

Back in the 90's I think, Herbie Hancock released an album called something like The New Standard, which were simply jazz versions of pop tunes which hadn't really been given that treatment before.

Joshua Redman did something similar with his 1998 album "Timeless Tales for Changing Times", but that included both jazz standards and jazz versions of pop "standards". Here is his lovely version of a Prince ballad.

Rhys

 

[Halfers]

Brad Mehldau has covered many contemporary rock and pop songs. Here he's covering a pretty decent kitchen sink pop ballad..

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6izm7L6b4o&ab_channel=SigiKlar

 

[JayeNM]

Then there is of course this...one of my faves in that category, really:

View: https://youtu.be/yK5mhtaDK8g

 

[LostCircuits]

All it takes is Miles Davis covering a song. If you missed that, you're out of luck.....

 

[Colin the Bear]

My favourite things. 😉

 

[turf3]

Most "jazz standard" ballads are originally show tunes, complete with verse and chorus (every so often, people will actually play or sing the verse). Thus considerable harmonic sophistication even in the original "vanilla" form like in the books for the show. Most "pop ballads" are just simple-chord confections thus offer less material for improvisers to work with. It takes a higher level of skill to make a quality artistic statement out of something like "Time after Time" (Miles...) vs. "Someone to Watch Over Me" with all its chords and 32 bar structure and the lengthy, rarely heard verse.

 

[LostCircuits]

How do Summertime and Fly me to the Moon fit into that definition? I heard Dave from Dotsero turn "Let it be" into a very sophisticated jazzy take.

 

[6441]

You can make any song into jazz (would you have guessed My Favorite Things if Trane hadn't done it?), but I think this hasn't been said yet:
I think the reason jazz depended on show tunes for years, was because so many of them have interesting harmonic progressions, melodies and characteristics that make improvising enjoyable. Exploring Shake Rattle and Roll in jazz is certainly possible, but less attractive to jazz players in the heyday of jazz.

And by the way, a large number of Beatles tunes are exactly like show tunes, but with no show.

 

[6441]

I heard Dave from Dotsero turn "Let it be" into a very sophisticated jazzy take.

As does Joshua Redman

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HKmJ7k0ZFA