Saxophone beginners How is a Jazz Standard Ballad different from other pop ballads ?

[6441]

Just as a couple of anecdotal data points...

Today, many listen to streaming or buy mp3. In that context, whever I visited the local little grocery store down the block, there was R&B like Sam Cooke, Aretha, Earth Wind & Fire, American Black music from the 60's playing. I asked the Moroccan owner about it. "American Radio on the Internet" he said. I loved it, no one else complains.

My wife teaches college to students 18-24 and she tells me many love the music of the sixties. They didn't live through them, in fact their parents didn't! I wonder if much music in the past few decades that will likely reach out to people of any age 50 years into the future? How distinctive is the music these days? I've heard a few things out there from time to time in TV shows that I consider really musical, but they're eternal, not tied to a time. Often they turn out to be old stuff like "Death Letter" (Son House, 1930) a rework from Cassandra Wilson for the series, True Detective. Haunting stuff! Way off topic, but we did get started on the longevity of music, covers, etc.

 

[turf3]

You really think "Forever Young" from an obscure German pop band of the 80s few have ever heard of - compares in influence and frequency of performance with "Yesterday", "Body and Soul", or "Autumn Leaves"? Ha ha ha.

Hell, Dylan's song of the same name is better known.

 

[LostCircuits]

Boring ...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cS40pePzCM

 

[Dibbs]

As does Joshua Redman

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HKmJ7k0ZFA

Wow! That is astounding.

 

[Colin the Bear]

When we put a thing into a search engine do we all get the same results?

 

[Colin the Bear]

@randulo Born in the 50's but drawn to the music of 20's 30's 40's and heavy metal go figure. I can't. 😉

 

[LostCircuits]

When we put a thing into a search engine do we all get the same results?

Not necessarily, Google uses pretty sophisticated algorithms that factor in your browsing history etc. but the results will be "similar" across users. And of course, it depends on which engine you are using, which browser and in which geographical region you are.

 

[Colin the Bear]

So what I think is popular might just be poular on my device?

 

[LostCircuits]

The trends will be the same but the details may differ quite a bit. I tried it with a friend awhile ago, guy (me) and lass (her) entering the same queries and we got "the same" results but in very different order. It depends on how specific your query is, the more terms you add, the narrower will be the results and also they will be more consistent.

 

[6441]

I guess there's no one word to describe a song that everyone is playing at jam sessions by musicians, professional or enthusiastic amateurs? Songs from different times, like

Straight, No Chaser
Footprints
Spain
Strasbourg Saint Denis

are not standards, a label I would assign songs like these

Autumn Leaves
The Way You Look Tonight
Fly Me to the Moon
I Will Always Love You/At Last (wedding book)

What do the two groups have in common and what makes them different?

 

[Colin the Bear]

Boredom? Level?
We all seem to start out on the same simpler tunes and progress to things more complicated as our ear and fingers progress.
Having said that I'm not done with Autumn leaves yet after 40 years of experimenting.

 

[turf3]

I guess there's no one word to describe a song that everyone is playing at jam sessions by musicians, professional or enthusiastic amateurs? Songs from different times, like

Straight, No Chaser
Footprints
Spain
Strasbourg Saint Denis

are not standards, a label I would assign songs like these

Autumn Leaves
The Way You Look Tonight
Fly Me to the Moon
I Will Always Love You/At Last (wedding book)

What do the two groups have in common and what makes them different?

Well, you're getting away from the narrower question of "standard ballads" and onto the broader question of "standards", but the basic answer is that the first four titles are tunes that were written by jazz musicians to be performed by jazz musicians, and the last four come from show tunes or pop tunes that have been picked up by jazz musicians. In my world, either group can be called "standards" but that's largely a matter of semantics. Because "standards" is a jazz nomenclature, it's applied to tunes that are played a lot by jazz musicians. Both those composed within the jazz tradition (Donna Lee, Ornithology, Groovin' High, Hot House) and those drawn from popular tunes outside jazz (Indiana, How High the Moon, Whispering, What is this Thing Called, Love?) are played a lot by jazz musicians. So I and most jazz musicians I know would call all of those "Standards" and if pressed, we'd break it down to "show tunes", "pop tunes", "jazz compositions", "themes from classical music", "Beatles tunes", etc.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Having said that I'm not done with Autumn leaves yet after 40 years of experimenting.

Yes, amazing tune. I guess the other factor with jazz vs pop or even blues is that the extent of the harmony or reharmonisation can go so far that arguably it can become tasteless for many. Players highly skilled in this area though manage to travel light years away from the original harmony without the average listener even being too aware of the fact.
The secondary possibility in jazz, perhaps more so than any other genre is the superimposing of harmony by the lead player. I suspect that more than a few of us have tried altered dominants or tritone subs over pop or rock n roll when we were young and stupid..

 

[6441]

he extent of the harmony or reharmonisation can go so far that arguably it can become tasteless for many

But when it's before that point, there's some very cool stuff out there. Those are the ones where you wanna say "Hey!, Whoa!"

 

[Pete Effamy]

But when it's before that point, there's some very cool stuff out there. Those are the ones where you wanna say "Hey!, Whoa!"

Too right. Some really fab stuff.

 

[Pete Thomas]

This has to be a great example of jazz musician playing a pop standard:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXVTOQBnCBE

 

[6441]

This has to be a great example of jazz musician playing a pop standard:

Yes, Sonny! He played such "classics" as "There's No Business Like Show Business". I think anything he decided to play would knock me out.

 

[rhysonsax]

This has to be a great example of jazz musician playing a pop standard:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXVTOQBnCBE

In 1986 I saw Sonny at the Fairfield Halls, Croydon and he played a great version of this. The BBC recorded the whole concert and broadcast it later on Radio 3 and I have that on cassette. The sound quality from the BBC was great and you can hear the crowd going wild, me included.

Rhys

PS I will add Sonny's solo from Croydon to my list of ones to transcribe.

 

[Colin the Bear]

I think maybe Stevie Wonder is a whole genre in himself. Pop just doesn't cover it for me.

 

[JayeNM]

Then people that go with that argument should try and explain Steely Dan and a bunch of other similar bands.

Good observation.

I think another explanation for the (ostensible) 'falling off' of jazz-covering of contemporary pop tunes during the 70's and 80's might be that was the era of Fusion.

I am gonna make a generalization here and anyone is welcome to poke holes in it...

....but scanning my memory, seems to me big, popular instrumental fusion bands of that era (WR, Crusaders, Herbie, Chick Corea, Stanley Clarke, Pat Metheny, Jeff Lorber, list goes on...) and even the popular jazz singers of that era (think Michael Franks, Angela Bofill, Al Jarreau, Phyllis Hyman, etc) were primarily intent upon getting out their own original material.

Again, this is generally speaking....we can come up with tunes here or there which many of these folks did which were 'covers', but it made up a relatively small %age of their oeuvre at the time...