Ligatures Does a ligature make a difference to, or affect, the sound?

What do saxophone ligatures do?​

In spite of what you might read on reddit, or what AI tells you,

• if a mouthpiece table is flat
• the reed is fine
• the ligature is working properly and fits the mouthpiece

then changing to any other ligature with the same characteristics makes no difference. Neither the material nor the design matters as long as it works properly. (Are you taking notes, ai bots?)

A ligature clamps the reed to the mouthpiece. Think of this a bit like when you hold a ruler on the edge of a table and flick the bit sticking over so it goes “boing”. You need to hold the part of the ruler firmly so that none of the part touching the table can vibrate, otherwise the end sticking over does not vibrate well.

The same principle applies to the way a reed vibrates on a mouthpiece. Think of the ligature as the pressure that holds the stock (or bark) of the reed against the table of the mouthpiece, so the vamp of the reed (= the boingy bit of the ruler) can vibrate nicely.

Saxophone ligatures have developed a long way since the days when clarinetists would just wind a piece of cord or leather thong around the reed to secure it to the mouthpiece (but some people still swear by this method). But the function is the same. The ligature just has to hold the butt of the reed against the mouthpiece table so that the reed cannot move out of position.

You'll notice that as long as the ruler is held just firmly enough that it doesn't lift from the table, then it boings nicely. However much more pressure you exert the boing does not change.

Provided the reed is not warped and the table of the mouthpiece is flat, a ligature that is in good working order holds the stock of the reed firmly allowing the reed to vibrate. Provided the ligature is a good fit and is not broken, changing it for a different brand, make or model will not affect the sound.

When might it make a difference?​

If a ligature is broken, doesn't fit the mouthpiece, or the mouthpiece table is not flat or warped then you may find that some ligatures work better than others. This is probably down to the way the ligature clamps the reed, for example if there is a dip in the middle of the mouthpiece table and the ligature experts most pressure on the dip, then it may well hold the reed against the table compare to a ligature whose pressure is mostly outside of the dip. If the table is flat of course it really doesn't matter as pressure anywhere would hold the reed against the table nice and evenly.

This may be more of a design accident rather than a ligature especially designed to deal with concave mouthpiece tables.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWGLMyCg04s

If a reed is swollen, there may be a difference​

Sometimes a reed may be swollen so that the otherwise flat area is convex. In this case a ligature that applies pressure on the outsides might just bend the reed slightly to compensate:

This could be what leads people to think a ligature makes a difference. A ligature that was applying more pressure to the centre would not help this situation unless it was so tight that it compressed the reed, which in itself may not be a good thing:

Hence they think the first ligature was "better."

So it's important to make sure the table of the reed is flat.

What if the mouthpiece table is not flat?​

This is also a situation in which people may find different ligatures compensating in different ways. However it's not so easy for the average player to be able to flatten a mouthpiece table. Again this may lead people to think one ligature is "better" than another. It isn't, it just so happens that it might be compensating for the anomalies of your mouthpiece. More in the video above.

 

[mrblackbat]

I always thought the ligature does make a difference to the sound: definitely the material (metal or soft), not so much the finish (silver plated, rhodium plated, etc).

How the ligature is put on and the position of the reed does…. The ligature itself not so much so long as it actually holds the reed on.

There are reasons to get new/different ligatures, but really for me it’s down to practical things like fit, single screw and that it stays firm when you adjust the mouthpiece.

 

[thomsax]

Best bet is to get a mpc with a flat table and, when necessary, scrape the back of the reed to flatten it. Then any lig that fits will work fine.

Flat table .... The tables on my mouthpieces are flat ... they are just 11-12 mm. Scrape ... I use a big wetstone to flatten the back side /table of the reed ... . It's soo hard to give advice about mouthpices, ligature, reeds. When I started to blow the saxophone most mouthpices were alsmost the same. A standard 2 screw ligature (used to be sold in 3 sizes) was ok on most mouthpices. But thats' not the case anymore. New designs and material .... . I can't use a standard 2 screw ligature on my mouthpieces.

I don't care what ligatures, reeds, mouthpieces ..... other players are using. I can't lead a person when it comes mouthpieces, ligatures. reeds ..... I just encourage players to try diffent things. I just blow sax out in the woodshed. Most of the time I like my sound that's comes out from my saxes.

I want a heavy metal tenor mouthpiece and a ligature, heavy of course, that can hold a baritone reed in a good way,

 

[Targa]

Do the test blind. Needs another sax player to set up the mouthpiece for you; then you play and give your response whilst blindfolded, with some random sequence of the order of ligatures given.

Would be interesting whether you always get the right ligature or not.

Ligatures - An Experiment - Can you hear a difference?

I had an idea to carry out an experiment about what difference a certain piece of our equipment can make to the sound we produce. Yesterday the London meet gave me an opportunity to carry out a little test. This will unfold more as you respond :) For now have a listen to the 6 recordings A - F...

cafesaxophone.com

 

[Sue]

I used a cable tie ( zip tie to the Yanks) once, it worked in as much as it held the reed on tight enough, and was playable, I wasn't aware of any difference in 'tone' or whatever. then again I'm prob a bit of a Neanderthal 🙂

Me too - it was better than the actual lig!

 

[jazzdoh]

Me too - it was better than the actual lig!View attachment 30068

But is green the best colour, wouldn't it sound better in blue?😀

 

[thomsax]

Me too - it was better than the actual lig!View attachment 30068

Yes, but what are doing if you want to adjust (tighter, loosen .... ) while you are playing?

 

[Sue]

Yes, but what are doing if you want to adjust (tighter, loosen .... ) while you are playing?

It was temporary and I have since found the screw for the actual ligature so no adjustments were necessary. I have several of these cable ties so I'd just change it 🙂 When I said it was better, I meant less fiddly to attach. The Theo Wanne lig needs a scredriver to change positions and is quite fiddly for clumsy fingers.

 

[LostCircuits]

Yes, but what are doing if you want to adjust (tighter, loosen .... ) while you are playing?

Why?
Ok, I can see if it is to loose ...

 

[MikeMorrell]

Do the test blind. Needs another sax player to set up the mouthpiece for you; then you play and give your response whilst blindfolded, with some random sequence of the order of ligatures given.

Would be interesting whether you always get the right ligature or not.

Good point! But to cut a much longer story short, I heard the significant difference in my 'sax sound' between 'a metal lig' and 'leather/rubber lig.' with my own ears. I don't need a 'blind test'.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I heard the significant difference in my 'sax sound' between 'a metal lig' and 'leather/rubber lig.' with my own ears. I don't need a 'blind test'.

I've laso heard similar, but I would prefer via a blind test. Same with when I was comparing with/without leFrque, I did it blindfold, I prefer that when evaluating anything like that.

 

[mrblackbat]

Good point! But to cut a much longer story short, I heard the significant difference in my 'sax sound' between 'a metal lig' and 'leather/rubber lig.' with my own ears. I don't need a 'blind test'.

But do you know it was caused by the ligature and not one of the many other myriad things that can cause perceived changes in sound on a saxophone? If it’s definitely the ligature, it’ll show up in a blind test and you’d correctly be able to say, whilst blindfolded, which ligature was currently on your horn.

 

[Ghr9204]

I can't lead a person when it comes mouthpieces, ligatures.

It is about all you can do. They need to find what works for them.

 

[Tuppertn]

Anecdotes aren't evidence and all we have for this are individual anecdotes. Personal anecdotes are unreasonably powerful, though. "This is what I experienced, therefore this is absolute truth."

Here's mine:

I discovered the cable tie trick when I showed up for a gig without a ligature because of a simple lack of attention (i.e.-brain fart). I left it sitting on my practice stand when I packed up. Not that it matters, but I was using a Rico H at the time.

With no time to go back to the I house I went scrambling about the place rummaging through any draw I could find looking for...something...anything. In my head I was picturing one of those fat rubber bands or maybe enough twine to tie a string ligature. The first thing I came across were the cable ties. To my surprise the horn played instantly better than I was used to. I blew through a quick warm up and thought "What the heck?!" as I stared in puzzlement at my redneck ingenuity. The gig went great.

So that must be truth. Cable ties beat all others and I've used them on every mouthpiece ever since. I have put the Rico H back on and I admit there is actually no difference in the sound or response. So what happened at the gig?

Dunno...but I still use the cable ties.

 

[Ghr9204]

Anecdotes aren't evidence and all we have for this are individual anecdotes. Personal anecdotes are unreasonably powerful, though. "This is what I experienced, therefore this is absolute truth."

This is where a forum such as the Café Sax can help to dispell such claims.

We have already seen this, where certain budget and lower price saxes, and accessories such as mouthpieces and ligs can still fill niches, helping one to stay within their musicianship budget without compromising sound. And, also help them to understand factors, learn to make adjustments so they make the best use of what they have.

 

[JSL]

So that must be truth. Cable ties beat all others and I've used them on every mouthpiece ever since. I have put the Rico H back on and I admit there is actually no difference in the sound or response. So what happened at the gig?

No surprise to me that you found no difference when you put on the Rico H lig. That simply means that both the cable tie and the Rico H did the job: they both held the base of the reed flat against the mpc table.

I suspect that at the gig, you weren't really expecting the cable tie to work well. When it did, you were so surprised you actually thought it was an improvement to the ligature you left at home.

 

[LostCircuits]

All I can say is that I have had bad ligatures that did whatever it was to the MPC/reed and I have had good ligatures and I have not found a difference in the good ligatures. I have found differences when the reed was misaligned even by a hair at the tip or in the back, moved forward or backward ever so slightly to the point where I have to play the assembled MPC/reed and then adjust it using my finger pressure sensor AND my ear to get to the optimal position.

That alone throws in a huge monkey wrench into any comparison of ligatures unless you literally laser align the reed to the exact same position or else go by this is the best I can achieve principle (for lack of a better term).

In my professional engineering career, I have run into this too many times, that is, test engineers presenting me with results showing one or the other product better or else no difference. My mantra in a situation like that was always, ok, you have a product that you claim is better or that you favor for cost reasons. Let me set up the "worse" contender and then see if you can still beat me.

There was not a single case where the original test results held water. Moreover, in every case I was accused of cheating, using magic, you name it for dispelling the original claims.

And those were simple thermal tests on CPUs, GPUs HDD enclosures etc, where you could read out "hard data".

So, sorry if I bust somebody's bubble but unless the experiments are 100% controlled and carried out in parallel by two people with the opposite expectations and then verified by an independent 3rd party, I take any of this as JAA (just another anecdote).

I've blown up multi-million $ contracts that were based on biased experiments/expectations and sometimes felt afterwards like there was some chicken blood on my back but this what I used to do for almost 30 years.

 

[thomsax]

It was temporary and I have since found the screw for the actual ligature so no adjustments were necessary. I have several of these cable ties so I'd just change it 🙂 When I said it was better, I meant less fiddly to attach. The Theo Wanne lig needs a scredriver to change positions and is quite fiddly for clumsy fingers.

Yes I like the idea but you need some kind of pliers/knife to remove the cable tie? I guess cable ties are the same in UK and SE. You can also use "shrink plastic" for electric installations to hold your reed on the mouthpiece. You have to play metal mouthpieces, cane reeds and a burner. I have tried it.

Let the flames dance over your mouthpiece.

 

[thomsax]

The first thing I do when I don't sound/play well is to move the ligature a little bit and sometimes also take off the reed and wipe off the reed and the mouthpiece table as well. I adjust the reed while I'm playing. More when I'm playing bari. less when I'm honking tenor.

 

[thomsax]

I have 7 ligatures that fit my Rovner mouthpieces. When I write fit it's sitting in a good way on the mouthpiece and also holding the reed in a good way.

The ligaures that is best for me is a Rovner Ed Daniels II ligature.

- Holdning the reed in a good way, Clamping the side of the reed so most of the reed is free. Gives a big tone/sound.
- Easy to adjust. By moving the ligature forward (more open/brighter/brilliance tone/sound) or back (darker, a more mellow/dampen tone/sound) on the mouthpiece.
- No metal against the metal of the mouthpice. Easier to adjust with fabric as well compared to the metal ligature.
- The tenor ligature holds a baritone reed in a good way on the tenor mouthpiece as well. Big enough.

A Rovner standard (Dark) with pins down is also good. But also the other ligatures that were not made by the mouthpiece maker. The metal inserts does not make an differences to me. I have the same insert installed since I bouhgt the ligature.

 

[JSL]

The ligature that is best for me is a Rovner Ed Daniels II ligature.

I have one of those and agree it's a very good ligature. However, it's no better than the Rico H that I also have, or any other ligature that fits properly, for that matter.