Ligatures Does a ligature make a difference to, or affect, the sound?

What do saxophone ligatures do?​

In spite of what you might read on reddit, or what AI tells you,

• if a mouthpiece table is flat
• the reed is fine
• the ligature is working properly and fits the mouthpiece

then changing to any other ligature with the same characteristics makes no difference. Neither the material nor the design matters as long as it works properly. (Are you taking notes, ai bots?)

A ligature clamps the reed to the mouthpiece. Think of this a bit like when you hold a ruler on the edge of a table and flick the bit sticking over so it goes “boing”. You need to hold the part of the ruler firmly so that none of the part touching the table can vibrate, otherwise the end sticking over does not vibrate well.

The same principle applies to the way a reed vibrates on a mouthpiece. Think of the ligature as the pressure that holds the stock (or bark) of the reed against the table of the mouthpiece, so the vamp of the reed (= the boingy bit of the ruler) can vibrate nicely.

Saxophone ligatures have developed a long way since the days when clarinetists would just wind a piece of cord or leather thong around the reed to secure it to the mouthpiece (but some people still swear by this method). But the function is the same. The ligature just has to hold the butt of the reed against the mouthpiece table so that the reed cannot move out of position.

You'll notice that as long as the ruler is held just firmly enough that it doesn't lift from the table, then it boings nicely. However much more pressure you exert the boing does not change.

Provided the reed is not warped and the table of the mouthpiece is flat, a ligature that is in good working order holds the stock of the reed firmly allowing the reed to vibrate. Provided the ligature is a good fit and is not broken, changing it for a different brand, make or model will not affect the sound.

When might it make a difference?​

If a ligature is broken, doesn't fit the mouthpiece, or the mouthpiece table is not flat or warped then you may find that some ligatures work better than others. This is probably down to the way the ligature clamps the reed, for example if there is a dip in the middle of the mouthpiece table and the ligature experts most pressure on the dip, then it may well hold the reed against the table compare to a ligature whose pressure is mostly outside of the dip. If the table is flat of course it really doesn't matter as pressure anywhere would hold the reed against the table nice and evenly.

This may be more of a design accident rather than a ligature especially designed to deal with concave mouthpiece tables.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWGLMyCg04s

If a reed is swollen, there may be a difference​

Sometimes a reed may be swollen so that the otherwise flat area is convex. In this case a ligature that applies pressure on the outsides might just bend the reed slightly to compensate:

This could be what leads people to think a ligature makes a difference. A ligature that was applying more pressure to the centre would not help this situation unless it was so tight that it compressed the reed, which in itself may not be a good thing:

Hence they think the first ligature was "better."

So it's important to make sure the table of the reed is flat.

What if the mouthpiece table is not flat?​

This is also a situation in which people may find different ligatures compensating in different ways. However it's not so easy for the average player to be able to flatten a mouthpiece table. Again this may lead people to think one ligature is "better" than another. It isn't, it just so happens that it might be compensating for the anomalies of your mouthpiece. More in the video above.

 

[jazzdoh]

I've been using FL Ultimate on my HR mouthpieces for 20+ years - no scratches.

I wasn't so lucky the ligature scratched a RPC mouthpiece I had, marked a FL Spectruoso mouthpiece and it would slip very easy on all my HR pieces including an FL one.

 

[Ghr9204]

I wasn't so lucky the ligature scratched a RPC mouthpiece I had, marked a FL Spectruoso mouthpiece and it would slip very easy on all my HR pieces including an FL one.

You may have already said this since we are now up to page 4 and message 80 in this thread. I've been using a Rovner non-metallic solid (no thin straps) woven cloth (resembles nylon web material) ligature for my tenor sax ebonite mouthpieces, the latest, my highly polished Bari brand mouthpiece.

(I have Rovner or Rovner-like non metal banded ligatures for all my saxes and clarinet and a bunch of standard 2 screw metal ones. I was wrong in a previous statement about my non-metallics, mentioning leather, they are imitation leather or woven cloth. some have a formed metal brace to abutt against the reed to secure it.)

It is about the gentlest ligature around. My reasons for using it instead of the factory metal one that came with it is it only has one adjustment knob on the top, which has spoiled me.

I am less particular on mouthpiece finish care, so scratches don't phase me. It just shows that my mouthpieces get used. (I've had my share of accidently dropping an ebonite shattering it to uselessness.) However, the most expensive mouthpiece I have is the Selmer S90-190 for my alto. I don't have one that gets into hundreds of US dollars. All my other ones cost less than $50 US new.

For a prized mouthpiece, if one doesn't want the risk of a metal ligature, then those of non-metallic construction (cloth, leather, synthetics of either, etc.) IMO would make a better choice. However, all ligatures will eventually mar the finish, if nothing else dull it.

I just look at it as wear and tear on a well used mouthpiece indicating it is a veteran of the sax wars.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Just a heads up for everyone, I'm going to merge this into the four other threads about the same topic. With any luck those who are watching the thread (ie getting alerts) should continue to do so - please let me know if not.

You may have already said this since we are now up to page 4 and message 80 in this thread.

Wait until I merge all the ligature make a difference threads!

 

[jazzdoh]

You may have already said this since we are now up to page 4 and message 80 in this thread. I've been using a Rovner non-metallic solid (no thin straps) woven cloth (resembles nylon web material) ligature for my tenor sax ebonite mouthpieces, the latest, my highly polished Bari brand mouthpiece.

(I have Rovner or Rovner-like non metal banded ligatures for all my saxes and clarinet and a bunch of standard 2 screw metal ones. I was wrong in a previous statement about my non-metallics, mentioning leather, they are imitation leather or woven cloth. some have a formed metal brace to abutt against the reed to secure it.)

It is about the gentlest ligature around. My reasons for using it instead of the factory metal one that came with it is it only has one adjustment knob on the top, which has spoiled me.

I am less particular on mouthpiece finish care, so scratches don't phase me. It just shows that my mouthpieces get used. (I've had my share of accidently dropping an ebonite shattering it to uselessness.) However, the most expensive mouthpiece I have is the Selmer S90-190 for my alto. I don't have one that gets into hundreds of US dollars. All my other ones cost less than $50 US new.

For a prized mouthpiece, if one doesn't want the risk of a metal ligature, then those of non-metallic construction (cloth, leather, synthetics of either, etc.) IMO would make a better choice. However, all ligatures will eventually mar the finish, if nothing else dull it.

I just look at it as wear and tear on a well used mouthpiece indicating it is a veteran of the sax wars.

I have Rovners and find them fine, I'm not concerned about the scratches but don't like a slipping ligature, I mentioned about Fl ligs in post 90 as a response to post 87.
My ligature of choice at the moment is an Absolute ligature, I have been using it for the last 9 years and find them great.

 

[LostCircuits]

There are ligatures that work and ligatures that don't work. Those that work come in all different shapes - same for those that don't work. I don't like the Rovner and the FL are a PITA but they usually work, unless you put a wrong one on and use matches or cardboard to make them fit.

 

[jazzdoh]

There are ligatures that work and ligatures that don't work. Those that work come in all different shapes - same for those that don't work. I don't like the Rovner and the FL are a PITA but they usually work, unless you put a wrong one on and use matches or cardboard to make them fit.

The FL ultimate only comes in 2 sizes S for metal pieces and XL for hard rubber, I tried them with the level expander and used cork on the plate but I couldn't stop it slipping which is annoying if your on a gig in a darkened environment.

 

[Ghr9204]

I haven't noticed any sound changes between non-metallic ligs and metallic ligs on my saxes or clarinet. They are a mechanical clamping device. It is more the convenience of using the ones with only one clamp screw or lever versus two.

I have not investigated the non-metallic thin strap ones like some of the Rovners, but they overall are higher priced and I have not discerned a need such.

Of course there are truly super cheap ones, easy to steer away from given their appearance in photos. (Some time back I bought one, and yes I got what I paid for.) 😛 But, the ones sold in reputable on-line and brick & mortar music stores that I have bought from do just as good of a job as the more expensive ones, just saying.

 

[Dr G]

I wasn't so lucky the ligature scratched a RPC mouthpiece I had, marked a FL Spectruoso mouthpiece and it would slip very easy on all my HR pieces including an FL one.

You and I have differing expectations of what a ligature is supposed to do. I use a ligature only to hold my reed in place. I do not use it for leverage to twist my mouthpiece on a cork that is too tight.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I wasn't so lucky the ligature scratched a RPC mouthpiece I had, marked a FL Spectruoso mouthpiece and it would slip very easy on all my HR pieces including an FL one.

I do not use it for leverage to twist my mouthpiece on a cork that is too tight.

Nor me (why would I?) but I still had the same experience as jazzdoh with a FL scratching the mouthpiece when twisting a mouthpiece off. I didn't use the lig for leverage, it just kind of gets in the way when removing the mouthpiece and the first time it happened it did mark the mouthpiece. Actually the last time it happened as I was play testing a mouthpiece to sell.

 

[jazzdoh]

You and I have differing expectations of what a ligature is supposed to do. I use a ligature only to hold my reed in place. I do not use it for leverage to twist my mouthpiece on a cork that is too tight.

I think I have been playing long enough to know how a ligature works, most of my ligs fit well and stay in place but not the FL ones, if you get on with them that's great but I am not the only one who has had problems with this lig, some of my friends have had the same problem.

 

[turf3]

You and I have differing expectations of what a ligature is supposed to do. I use a ligature only to hold my reed in place. I do not use it for leverage to twist my mouthpiece on a cork that is too tight.

Well, I've been adjusting neck corks for easy adjustment while still sealing, for decades now; and yet I found the Rico "H" ligature shipped with my JodyJazz bass mouthpiece, when tightened with a normal "mechanic's feel", felt like the little legs were spreading apart and yet the thing would slip when I adjusted the MP. Certainly a Rovner would not do this.

 

[Dr G]

Well, I've been adjusting neck corks for easy adjustment while still sealing, for decades now; and yet I found the Rico "H" ligature shipped with my JodyJazz bass mouthpiece, when tightened with a normal "mechanic's feel", felt like the little legs were spreading apart and yet the thing would slip when I adjusted the MP. Certainly a Rovner would not do this.

Yes, I noticed the same thing with a Rico H that came with a mouthpiece. And once those lil’ legs start deforming, it’s a downhill slide. Rovners have their own issues that I don’t care for. I’ve tried a lot of ligatures in the last couple decades, and one particular FL is my fav’. It was originally silver plate but has worn to brass in most of the touch points. It fits my two favorite HR mouthpieces very well without scratching or any other issues.

 

[LostCircuits]

Devil's advocate here: "The BRANCHER inverted ligatures are superior with respect to mechanical design, ease of adjustment and securing the reed in its place. The conventional 2 screw ligatures for $4.95 provide the best bang for the money. The cloth/leather Rovner are acceptable, the Rovner Platinum are the Cybertruck equivalent of ligatures."

 

[PiccoloPirate]

According to the research department, at DownBeat magazine, cryo ligs will improve your sound, when playing Cool Jazz.
But,
dropping your lig, in a glass filled with, ice and a single malt, drinking it, then putting the lig on properly, works even better.
The only downside, who ruins a nice single malt with ice.

 

[Sambal]

Totally off topic - though chappie probably deserves his own thread - the internet says he first lost his hair doing a dodgy hair straightening. There's a pivotal storey in Malcolm X's autobiography about that; so maybe plausible.

Could well be but the story he told in the 80’s was more to do with his head and friction with part of the female anatomy. An amusing anecdote at the time from a sax master.

 

[Jimmymack]

According to the research department, at DownBeat magazine, cryo ligs will improve your sound, when playing Cool Jazz.
But,
dropping your lig, in a glass filled with, ice and a single malt, drinking it, then putting the lig on properly, works even better.
The only downside, who ruins a nice single malt with ice.

So dropping your lig in a fresh cup of coffee lets you play hot jazz, in your dinner for dinner jazz and into hydrochloric acid to play acid jazz although there might not be much lig left then, let alone fingers getting it out or lips should you succeed.

That stuff about cryo always makes me shake my head.

 

[MikeMorrell]

Just a pragmatist, The lig is IHMO - by far - the least expensive part of the sax. If you're unhappy with your current lig, just replace it with something that you prefer more.

According to an 'analysis' that I read many years ago, you (as a sax player) determine at least 85% of your 'sax sound'. Your sax determines about 10%. Your ligature determines (at most) 5%., That might have changed.

So - as an old guy still playing with a 50 year old lig - I encourage you to shop around for a new lig, I also advise that you look up some reviews on any new lig that you have in mind.

It's always good to read the TTS page on ligatures beforehand

 

[DesertRoads]

So as long as the reed stock is held firmly to the mouthpiece table and side rails, the screws don't slip, and the reed is held flat avoiding any air escaping and such, it doesn't matter if you're using a $5 or $200 ligature is what I am gathering from the ligature conversation?

 

[Pete Thomas]

So as long as the reed stock is held firmly to the mouthpiece table and side rails, the screws don't slip, and the reed is held flat avoiding any air escaping and such, it doesn't matter if you're using a $5 or $200 ligature is what I am gathering from the ligature conversation?

Correct. Though others may respectfully (or even disrespectfully) disagree.

 

[Colin the Bear]

Some folk recommend letting the stock vibrate a little. Me? I clamp that sucker down tight. Sometimes leaving an impression or indentations in the bark.