Ligatures Do ligatures affect the sound of a saxophone?

[skully12]

I was just wondering how ligatures affects the saxophone. I always thought they were just tools to help keep the reed in place, but after reading some posts it seems that they do a little more.
Could you guys enlighten me as to how they affect the sound of the sax?

 

[TomMapfumo]

Hi Skully12!

I'm not an expert but ligatures IMHO seem to have a significant effect on the quality of sound produced by a saxophone.
When I started playing sax I had a Rampone soprano which came with a stock mouthpiece. To me it was almost unplayable and I thought that the sound was poor. I bought a Rovner Dark Ligature and the sound was almost unrecognisable. I the purchased a new mouthpiece and played it with its own ligature - pleasant enough and an improvement. Once I played it with a new Ligature the sound was improved immensely - more vibrant, more 3 - dimensional, more tuneful.
For me its like investing money in a decent cartridge on a reasonable hi-fi turntable that provides a more detailed and richer sound. I primarily use a Rovner EVO-5 which can be put on in different ways, all of which sound quite distinctly different, and exceptional, at least to my ears.

Kind regards
Tom

 

[Pete Thomas]

Some people think it makes a difference others don't, although it's usually agreed that if it's broken or not working properly then it has an adverse affect on the sound.

My own opinion (and I'm open to being proven wrong), is that if a ligature is working properly, ie holding the reed firmly against a flat mouthpiece table, then they all sound the same.

Some do a better job than others if the mouthpiece is distorted in any way, so this could explain differences in sound.

It's also quite possible that a ligature can have a certain sound very close up that only the player hears, or it might seem to have a different response that only the player feels.

I have tried quite a few, including normal 2 screw, Rovners of all types, Vandoren Optimum and Francois Louis, and to be honest I can't tell the difference. I use either a Rovner or a standard Vandoren 2 screw. I can switch between them even when recording the same song and there is no recorded difference in sound (that I can hear).

 

[TomMapfumo]

I'll get my coat!

 

[Pete Thomas]

TomMapfumo wrote:
I'll get my coat!

Not at all - I know many players, much better than me, who think exactly the same as you do. It's just that if there is a difference, I've never noticed it. I totally believe that others do.

 

[TomMapfumo]

So are you a better player but a worse listener than me or am I just deluded? The difference seems palpable to my ears but, as you say, I am very close to the action when I play. I am sensitive to resonance, richness/thinness of tone, and several other aspects of hearing/feel, and notice changes in sound when I switch ligatures on the same set-up. Others have commented that instruments sound very different from whichever end you happen to be. This is particularly true in the brass world where friends are routinely invited along when someone is trialling/purchasing a new instrument (not so au fait with the Sax world in this respect.)

Either way you are a genuinely approachable bloke, and I've decided to begin playing the sax again!

Kind regards
Tom

 

[Pete Thomas]

It could be that whatever ligature I use, the sound is the same, but for other people the sound is different.

Differences in any kit (the saxophone, reed, mouthpiece), get less obvious the more you play. So when someone is very experienced (not necessarily the same as being a good player), then differences can be minimal as the player can adjust (probably subconciously) to get the sound they are after.

It's a bit like paintbrushes. If I paint a bathroom with a lousy paintbrush, it looks bad. If I use a good paintbrush it looks OK. But an experienced painter can make it look good with the dodgy old brush.

 

[Jules]

In my experience different ligs may (a) make playing in extreme registers easier, especially high and altissimo and (b) make a mouthpiece more reed friendly.
The experience of playing a lig which has metal in contact with the reed, not leather, seems different... I'm not going to go all out and say it changes the sound of the sax, as I've never really got scientific in testing it- but playing on a Francois Louis (the wire ligs that look like little metal ladders wrapped round your mouthpiece) certainly feels different.

 

[Pete Thomas]

nachoman wrote:
but playing on a Francois Louis (the wire ligs that look like little metal ladders wrapped round your mouthpiece) certainly feels different.

I tried a Francois Louis at the Frankfurt Musikmesse on their demo R & C tenor, but with my own mouthpiece. There was quite a crowd gathering round that stand and I switched between the FL and my own cheap 2 screw. I asked the people watching if they could hear any difference. At that point the man from FL snatched the saxophone and lig from my hand...

 

[Jules]

Hm.. I'll stand by the fact it feels different (for what that's worth) & I do reckon certaib ligs seem to make altissimo kick in better....

 

[TomMapfumo]

Would you go so far as to say that some of us are "Ligature Insensitive Practitioners" or a bit "Lippy" as some may put it?

 

[old_git]

Takes me back to my HiFi days when the audiophile shop in Addiscombe would not have a telephone in its listening room on the grounds that it coloured the sound. Of course everybody moved their phones out of their listening except the majority did not have a listening room so the phone had to stay. It was probably peer pressure as who is going to say, "I can't hear a difference."?
There is a study called Psycho-acoustics that from what little I understand, suggests that you hear what you want to hear. One on the classic examples of the ability of the brain to correct and build soundstages was the ghastly 60s and 70s transistor radios with 2 inch speakers. In experiments, persons in an adjoining room could hear bass tones that such a small speaker could not produce. If they were in the room when the radio was turned on, they were not impressed and could not hear the bass.
Mind you, my saxophone vibrates when played and therefore the material used and the coatings do make an audible difference or am I listening in the next door room? Believe the medics call it 'placebo effect'.

 

[josh_johnson]

nachoman wrote:
Hm.. I'll stand by the fact it feels different (for what that's worth) & I do reckon certaib ligs seem to make altissimo kick in better....

I bought a Rovner Eddie Daniels II ligature last summer. I found it gave a smoother sound than my 2 screw, but closed-tube harmonic exercises were even trickier than usual. Put the old 2 screw back on and the notes were easier to produce. Now whether it changed the overall sound I wouldn't like to say.

 

[skully12]

Thanks for the input guys. I guess some people have different opinions about and that's fine. Right now i use a metal two screw selmer ligature on my no name student mouthpiece (yay for me!) I just wondered if swithcing ligatures would be a cheap way to upgrade the sound of the mothpiece overall.

Btw; you guys seem very polite to me whenever I post. thank you all very much 🙂

 

[pete_canter]

I've just switched to Rovner dark from 2 screw and can't really say I've noticed much of a difference, but I have decided to get a Rovner for my alto as well because they look better and don't go rusty (I hope). I'm so shallow!

Pete

 

[TomMapfumo]

Sounds like another case of LIP Syndrome. I just cannot help but notice a difference myself, and love my EVO-5. As to whether you are shallow or not, probably, but we'll have to ask Pete for a professional opinion!

Kind regards to all
Tom

 

[losaavedra]

Changed my mind w.r.t. posting here, my thoughts not relevant.

 

[TomMapfumo]

Go on, buy a proper Ligature and see whether it improves the sound or not. If not, go back to your sellotape and blu-tack! Even Pete uses a Rovner Lig at times. Go and do likewise and save yourself hours of faffing about!

Kind regards
Tom

 

[Pete Thomas]

The good thing about Rovners is that you can sit on them. Then they definitely sound better than a metal 2-screw that has been sat on.

One thing I should point out. I agree that there could well be differences, however every time you take one lig off and put another one on to test, the reed is unlikely to go back in exactly the same place - this could also cause a slightly different response.

 

[TomMapfumo]

Morning all!

Today I received my new Tenor mouthpiece - an Otto Link RG ebonite 108, with own cap and ligature. I did an immediate test with my EVO-5 Lig/Bari synthetic reed and straight afterwards with the Link Lig. Both sounded lovely, good mouthpiece by sounds of it, but the EVO-5 had a distinct edge - it was more resonant, richer & more 3-dimensional than the Link lig, which sounded more neutral and lacked the buzz of the EVO-5. If the EVO-5 was rated 100, the Link lig would be 89-91. At the mouthpiece end of the sax there was, IMHO, a noticeable difference.

So, conclusive proof that not all ligs are equal. This broadly mirrored my experience with my Selmer SuperSession Alto mpc and a direct comparison between the Selmer Lig and an EVO-5 Lig.

Anyway off to enjoy my new mouthpiece which sounds very promising, and seems to give my Yani tenor improved resonance and richness!

Hallelujah!
Kind regards
Tom