Beginner impro Chords from a scale

[GCinCT]

I know stirred is the proper way, but I prefer shaken, like a certain fictional British spy. 😉

 

[JSL]

One good thing to bear in mind(as people often get this wrong) is the difference between the words root and tonic. So in the key of C or C minor there are at least seven roots but only one tonic.

Yes, good point. Well-stated, Pete. And of course, if you bring in substitute chords, even more roots. One root for every chord.

p.s. I prefer my Bombay Saphire Gin martini shaken, with an olive (inserted in the martini glass). But I rarely drink those anymore (only on very special occasions); mostly stick to a couple glasses good red wine.

 

[skeller047]

A good way to investigate theory is the dry martini…

 

[GCinCT]

Yes, good point. Well-stated, Pete. And of course, if you bring in substitute chords, even more roots. One root for every chord.

p.s. I prefer my Bombay Saphire Gin martini shaken, with an olive (inserted in the martini glass). But I rarely drink those anymore (only on very special occasions); mostly stick to a couple glasses good red wine.

I'm a Bombay Sapphire and olive fan too. You have excellent taste!

 

[JSL]

Root = 1 of the chord, Tonic = 1 of the key?

That's it in a nutshell. There's one thing I just thought of, though. One chord that is sort of unique is the diminished chord. Because the diminished chord is symmetrical (stacked minor 3rds), every note in it can function as the root. Take for example a B diminished chord:

B D F Ab. That same chord is also a D, F, and Ab diminished chord. So, in a sense, it has 4 roots, depending on what chord you call it. Because all 4 chords are the same chord.

I tend to view diminished chords in relation to a dominant 7b9 chord, 'rooted' on the 3rd, if you eliminate the root of the dominant chord. i.e. G7b9: G B D F Ab (1 3 5 b7 b9). Remove the G and you have the B diminished chord.

And of course, you could substitute the chords: Bb7b9, Db7b9, E7b9, all using that same diminished chord, rooted on the 3rd of each of those chords in turn. Note that the roots of those 4 chords: G7, Bb7, Db7, E7 forms another diminished chord. Believe it or not, this stuff comes in handy when playing over dominant chords. Now after reading all that, you're probably ready for:

I'm a Bombay Sapphire and olive fan too. You have excellent taste!

You're making my mouth water.

 

[skeller047]

One chord that is sort of unique is the diminished chord. Because the diminished chord is symmetrical (stacked minor 3rds), every note in it can function as the root. Take for example a B diminished chord:

B D F Ab. That same chord is also a D, F, and Ab diminished chord. So, in a sense, it has 4 roots,

Actually, and strictly speaking (if not pedantically…), that’s a diminished 7th chord. Not exactly the same as a diminished chord which is a triad by definition. But you are correct in that it has 4 potential roots.

There is another symmetrical chord, and that is the augmented chord - stacked major 3rds. It has 3 notes which can be considered roots.

Ambiguous chords like these are widely used in jazz. The diatonic chords from a major scale are not ambiguous however.

It is possible to get an augmented triad in the melodic or harmonic minor scales, but you have to substitute the 6th for the 5th to do it. In a minor key, V7 (b13) is often played as a V+ chord, omitting the 5th. Which allows for abrupt modulations to 2 other key centers.

Using the major scale as a basis for chord construction is a good place to start the investigation of harmonic function. Ambiguous chords or chords with non-diatonic extensions are quite common in jazz, but less so in some other forms of music. But their usage becomes more clear once one has a basic understanding of functional harmony using diatonic chords derived from the major scale.

 

[turf3]

Actually, and strictly speaking (if not pedantically…), that’s a diminished 7th chord. Not exactly the same as a diminished chord which is a triad by definition. But you are correct in that it has 4 potential roots.

There is another symmetrical chord, and that is the augmented chord - stacked major 3rds. It has 3 notes which can be considered roots.

Ambiguous chords like these are widely used in jazz. The diatonic chords from a major scale are not ambiguous however.

It is possible to get an augmented triad in the melodic or harmonic minor scales, but you have to substitute the 6th for the 5th to do it. In a minor key, V7 (b13) is often played as a V+ chord, omitting the 5th. Which allows for abrupt modulations to 2 other key centers.

Using the major scale as a basis for chord construction is a good place to start the investigation of harmonic function. Ambiguous chords or chords with non-diatonic extensions are quite common in jazz, but less so in some other forms of music. But their usage becomes more clear once one has a basic understanding of functional harmony using diatonic chords derived from the major scale.

I'd like to point out to anyone reading this who's not totally clear on it, that sitting down at the piano will make it much much easier to understand it than just reading about it. Frankly, even though it's been almost 50 years since I last took piano lessons and I've probably played piano for less than ten hours total since, I still think in terms of the keyboard when you say things like "diminished 7th" - I see the notes on the keys and the relationships.

 

[JSL]

Actually, and strictly speaking (if not pedantically…), that’s a diminished 7th chord. Not exactly the same as a diminished chord which is a triad by definition. But you are correct in that it has 4 potential roots.

+1. You're right of course. And I don't mind if it's pedantic; I'm a bit of a pedant myself. I should have thought to call it a diminished 7th. But I did think about the triad as well, without mentioning it. The same is true for the triad; it has 3 potential roots.

And +1 to the rest of your post as well. Spot on, as usual. These 'ambiguous' chords have to be seen in light of the harmonic context. Which is why I like to put the diminished 7th chord in context with the dom7b9 chord. Not to mention the fact that adding the other extensions, #9, #11, and 13, will result in all the notes of the 'half/whole' diminished scale.

I'm thinking of writing up a post further developing the harmonic relationship between the dominant & related diminished chords. Maybe only to be appreciated by 'music theory nerds'. But I find it interesting. *

*Edit: I just realized we are in the 'Beginner theory' section here. Probably not the place to 'further develop' diminished/dominant chord theory! I'll find the appropriate place for such a post (just found it: 'theory and improv'). Forgive me, as of right now, I'm new to the Cafe.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I'd like to point out to anyone reading this who's not totally clear on it, that sitting down at the piano will make it much much easier to understand it than just reading about it.

I couldn't have said it better myself. But sadly a lot of people won't do that.

Maybe only to be appreciated by 'music theory nerds'.

You rang sir?

 

[JSL]

I'd like to point out to anyone reading this who's not totally clear on it, that sitting down at the piano will make it much much easier to understand it than just reading about it. Frankly, even though it's been almost 50 years since I last took piano lessons and I've probably played piano for less than ten hours total since, I still think in terms of the keyboard when you say things like "diminished 7th" - I see the notes on the keys and the relationships.

Just saw this ^^^^^ after writing my post above. Yes, the keyboard really helps both to visualize this stuff, and maybe more importantly, to hear it.

 

[Digger2054]

@JSL my teacher has stressed the importance of Diminished chords, and how useful they are, and can get a fair amount of mileage out them.

I'll dig out the keyboard.

Theory isn't my strong point... After tonight's sectional rehearsal neither is rhythm and a sight reading 🤣

 

[lydian]

Actually, and strictly speaking (if not pedantically…), that’s a diminished 7th chord. Not exactly the same as a diminished chord which is a triad by definition. But you are correct in that it has 4 potential roots.

There is another symmetrical chord, and that is the augmented chord - stacked major 3rds. It has 3 notes which can be considered roots.

Ambiguous chords like these are widely used in jazz. The diatonic chords from a major scale are not ambiguous however.

It is possible to get an augmented triad in the melodic or harmonic minor scales, but you have to substitute the 6th for the 5th to do it. In a minor key, V7 (b13) is often played as a V+ chord, omitting the 5th. Which allows for abrupt modulations to 2 other key centers.

Using the major scale as a basis for chord construction is a good place to start the investigation of harmonic function. Ambiguous chords or chords with non-diatonic extensions are quite common in jazz, but less so in some other forms of music. But their usage becomes more clear once one has a basic understanding of functional harmony using diatonic chords derived from the major scale.

Cat walks across piano. Einstein, "let's call zat a diminished 7th." 😛😎