Mouthpieces Can a mediocre horn be made into a better horn? 🤔

[teen37]

So y'all, not sure if this is covered somewhere, but I was playing my mediocre Arbiter Pro Jazz tenor last night and I'm sort of growing into my new Otto Link Tone edge mouthpiece nicely...... I think.... 🤔🤷

Anyway, I woke up this morning with this question on my mind.
Can a mediocre sax like my Arbiter, be made/tweaked into a much better "not mediocre" horn? 🤔

I mean, I have very little experience playing other horns so I'm not sure that I would recognize all the little nuances you guys go on about.... Would I?
Y'all talk about keyword ergonomics and tone and intonation. I'm presuming I would hear the last two, but obviously that can be vastly altered with mouthpiece and Reed choice.

Would I really feel and hear a difference if I got my "mediocre" Taiwanese horn tweaked to within an inch of its life?

I think this has popped into my head because I've been looking to upgrade my "mediocre" horn and I've been wondering if I would really tell the difference if I played a selmer or yani or Trevor James for instance.

This is off the back of watching a guy on YouTube comparing his very cheaply purchased Yamaha tenor sax to his mark VI, he played them along side each other on the same song and I'm not kidding, there was absolutely no difference.... None whatsoever. 😳 If I wasn't watching the switch I wouldn't have known he was playing two different horns.

So..... Back to the question..... Is it possible?.... More importantly... Is it worth it?..... What would such an overhaul cost these days?..... Ballpark figure?.... The cheaply purchased Yamaha was bought blind off ebay during covid for £400 and he took it to his long time technician for a complete overhaul and it cost £230. Still a cheap horn!

There aren't any music shops local for me to go try figure this out by playing a bunch of horns. Looking at used horns is overwhelming as I've previously mentioned to you guys in other posts about not really knowing overly much about it all and I can only compare anything what I'm currently playing myself.

I look forward to hearing what y'all think about this guys 🤔☺️

Ps. Sorry guys just realised I've posted this under mouthpieces and I don't know how to change it to something more appropriate 🙄

 

[Stephen Howard]

The first thing you have to ascertain is the reason why the horn is mediocre. It's rarely the case that it's 'just a crappy horn' and far more likely to be down to assorted mechanical issues. A leaky pad here, some wobbly action there...a spot of misregulation on top. It all adds up to the horn being unable to give of its best.

So, do you need to have it tweaked to within an inch of its life? No - and if you were thinking that would set you back a couple of hundred quid....think again.
However, it's often the case that there's just one or two issues that account for 90% of the problems. Got a leak on the side Bb pad? There goes a fat chunk of tone and stability. G# badly regulated? Say bye-bye to clear bell notes. Wonky Aux.F tonehole? Everything from G down is iffy. Put just those three issues together and you've got some fairly major problems when it comes to blowing the horn.

There's a still a lot that can be very greatly improved without throwing a great deal of money at it.
I've got a nice old MkVI tenor on the bench today. It's going to cost the client £400 - and for that it gets stripped down, the crook joint gets sorted, the body gets straightened, the toneholes get precision levelled and the action gets tightened. The pads are in good shape so will only need some tweaking. When it's done it'll be in tip-top playing condition...and will absolutely have been worth spending that much money on it.
Cheaper horns rarely warrant that kind of expense simply because you'd often be better off putting that cash towards a better horn. Gets a bit sketchy when it comes to horns like the basic Yamahas because despite the price they're great horns.

If you're unable to work out exactly what's wrong with the horn then you need to find someone who can - and who'll show and explain to you exactly what's wrong and detail the necessary fixes....without 'overselling' you on work that isn't going to be cost-effective.
That, unfortunately, tends to be the hard part.

 

[teen37]

The first thing you have to ascertain is the reason why the horn is mediocre. It's rarely the case that it's 'just a crappy horn' and far more likely to be down to assorted mechanical issues. A leaky pad here, some wobbly action there...a spot of misregulation on top. It all adds up to the horn being unable to give of its best.

So, do you need to have it tweaked to within an inch of its life? No - and if you were thinking that would set you back a couple of hundred quid....think again.
However, it's often the case that there's just one or two issues that account for 90% of the problems. Got a leak on the side Bb pad? There goes a fat chunk of tone and stability. G# badly regulated? Say bye-bye to clear bell notes. Wonky Aux.F tonehole? Everything from G down is iffy. Put just those three issues together and you've got some fairly major problems when it comes to blowing the horn.

There's a still a lot that can be very greatly improved without throwing a great deal of money at it.
I've got a nice old MkVI tenor on the bench today. It's going to cost the client £400 - and for that it gets stripped down, the crook joint gets sorted, the body gets straightened, the toneholes get precision levelled and the action gets tightened. The pads are in good shape so will only need some tweaking. When it's done it'll be in tip-top playing condition...and will absolutely have been worth spending that much money on it.
Cheaper horns rarely warrant that kind of expense simply because you'd often be better off putting that cash towards a better horn. Gets a bit sketchy when it comes to horns like the basic Yamahas because despite the price they're great horns.

If you're unable to work out exactly what's wrong with the horn then you need to find someone who can - and who'll show and explain to you exactly what's wrong and detail the necessary fixes....without 'overselling' you on work that isn't going to be cost-effective.
That, unfortunately, tends to be the hard part.

Yeah, I think you're completely right Stephen 😊 that's the dilemma I have going forward. Where can I take it to get it properly looked at that won't oversell on unnecessary work and is it worth it in the long run or just put that money to a better horn as we've talked about previously. I'm still looking for another horn and I'm thinking I feel safer keeping an eye out on Curly woodwind as suggested.

 

[Pete Effamy]

As Stephen H alluded to, I think your wording is incorrect. A good horn could be playing badly, or have been damaged; but that can be sorted out and the horn resurrected back to its previous playing potential. A poor horn will no doubt still be poor even if completely leak - free and blowing properly.

So maybe we need to ask our techs this:

If we don't have, say, £2.5k - £3k for a premium name horn in "ready to go" condition; is it worth the punt on a "bit knackered" Yam 62 or something for £1200 and pay up to £500 to get it going?

 

[teen37]

As Stephen H alluded to, I think your wording is incorrect. A good horn could be playing badly, or have been damaged; but that can be sorted out and the horn resurrected back to its previous playing potential. A poor horn will no doubt still be poor even if completely leak - free and blowing properly.

So maybe we need to ask our techs this:

If we don't have, say, £2.5k - £3k for a premium name horn in "ready to go" condition; is it worth the punt on a "bit knackered" Yam 62 or something for £1200 and pay up to £500 to get it going?

I'm not sure how to just cherry pick certain parts of a quote sorry, but yeah, maybe my wording is incorrect 🤔🤷 I did try to think of how best to phrase it but i was still under the impression of sleep (yeah, not worded correctly I know 🙄😂) so that's how it came out this morning.
Maybe your question of getting a rough horn needing work is a completely different question to mine.... Possibly 🤷🤔😉 after all I was really asking was it worth spending on a mediocre Taiwanese import in the first place... Wasn't I?... 🤔🤔🤔

 

[Pete Thomas]

The hugely biggest difference between a mediocre and a good setup is the mouthpiece, which has a far greater impact than the actual instrument. In my experience a mediocre or poor horn with a great mouthpiece can be better than a great horn with a poor mouthpiece. Within reason - you cannot polish a turd so for example if the instrument is so badly made the notes are just plain out of tune then a mouthpiece is unlikely to solve that. (not to be confused with mouthpiece mismatch due to bore of vintage instruments).

I'm not sure how to just cherry pick certain parts of a quote sorry

6 Quoting posts or part of posts. Reactions & spoilers

cafesaxophone.com

 

[teen37]

The hugely biggest difference between a mediocre and a good setup is the mouthpiece, which has a far greater impact than the actual instrument. In my experience a mediocre or poor horn with a great mouthpiece can be better than a great horn with a poor mouthpiece. Within reason - you cannot polish a turd so for example if the instrument is so badly made the notes are just plain out of tune then a mouthpiece is unlikely to solve that. (not to be confused with mouthpiece mismatch due to bore of vintage instruments).

6 Quoting posts or part of posts. Reactions & spoilers

cafesaxophone.com

Yeah, I think you're right Pete 😊 my horn seems to play in tune so not a poor instrument I think. And I can get up the register without too much problem with it sounding out. Maybe it's just my own inexperience here? I do struggle with anything below low d but that could be me not the horn? Overall I think it's not a bad sounding horn but I have nothing to compare it to. I realise I have a lot of work to do as a player to improve and I'm working on that. Just really wanted to sound off of you guys is all 🤔😉

 

[Stephen Howard]

As Stephen H alluded to, I think your wording is incorrect. A good horn could be playing badly, or have been damaged; but that can be sorted out and the horn resurrected back to its previous playing potential. A poor horn will no doubt still be poor even if completely leak - free and blowing properly.

So maybe we need to ask our techs this:

If we don't have, say, £2.5k - £3k for a premium name horn in "ready to go" condition; is it worth the punt on a "bit knackered" Yam 62 or something for £1200 and pay up to £500 to get it going?

The problem with "bit knackered" lies in exactly what's a bit knackered.
Pads? No problem - out 'n in. Dents, scuffs and solderwork. Again, no biggie.
Structural damage? Depends on where and how much. Stoved-in bells and bottom bows get expensive.
Worn action is the biggie. Sorting it out properly is expensive, especially if there's rust involved.

Best case scenario is a horn that's old but hasn't seen much use over a very long time...but enough to ensure the original pads are shot to hell. Quite a lot of Yamahas out there like that.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I guess it’s like being a Wheeler Dealer - you can look at something most wouldn’t touch and know if it’s worth it or not.

 

[teen37]

The problem with "bit knackered" lies in exactly what's a bit knackered.
Pads? No problem - out 'n in. Dents, scuffs and solderwork. Again, no biggie.
Structural damage? Depends on where and how much. Stoved-in bells and bottom bows get expensive.
Worn action is the biggie. Sorting it out properly is expensive, especially if there's rust involved.

Best case scenario is a horn that's old but hasn't seen much use over a very long time...but enough to ensure the original pads are shot to hell. Quite a lot of Yamahas out there like that.

OK so, mine is none of that as far as I can say. It looks like a new horn tbh. I don't think it had much use before I bought it probably coming up for 15 - 20 years ago. I've not played it to death myself as I haven't been enamoured with this horn personally from the get go and my practice sessions have been sporadic over the years, (nothing to play for really no longer playing in a band 🙄🤷) but having said that, I get the feeling it's not a terrible horn 🤷 but like I've said, my experience is very limited and I've nothing to compare it with.
Maybe my inexperience is my downfall here. 🤷

 

[teen37]

I guess it’s like being a Wheeler Dealer - you can look at something most wouldn’t touch and know if it’s worth it or not.

Only if you know what you're looking at in the first place I guess 🤷

 

[Stephen Howard]

I guess it’s like being a Wheeler Dealer - you can look at something most wouldn’t touch and know if it’s worth it or not.

Exactly that.
I suppose the biggest advantage I have is that I can look at what seems to be a deal-breaker - such as a crook having come detached from its tenon sleeve - and know that 15 minutes' work will put it right.

 

[Pete Effamy]

Only if you know what you're looking at in the first place I guess 🤷

exactly.

If you’ve not played a lot of horns or mouthpieces it might be worth a couple of visits to a music shop;

1. Try different horns with your present mouthpiece - try not to take any notice (this is quite hard) of what horns you pick up - just number them. Make notes on what you thought after each playing (play the same thing on each) and have your husband do the same. Don’t confer until the end.

I did this with a mate of mine when I bought my tenor. We both chose the same one as a stand out.

2. Trying mouthpieces. Actually, this should arguably the first port of call as A) it’s cheaper and B) it could still prove a problem with a different horn.

Maybe having time between fact - finding and purchasing can only be a good thing.

 

[teen37]

exactly.

If you’ve not played a lot of horns or mouthpieces it might be worth a couple of visits to a music shop;

1. Try different horns with your present mouthpiece - try not to take any notice (this is quite hard) of what horns you pick up - just number them. Make notes on what you thought after each playing (play the same thing on each) and have your husband do the same. Don’t confer until the end.

I did this with a mate of mine when I bought my tenor. We both chose the same one as a stand out.

2. Trying mouthpieces. Actually, this should arguably the first port of call as A) it’s cheaper and B) it could still prove a problem with a different horn.

Maybe having time between fact - finding and purchasing can only be a good thing.

All excellent suggestions, my problem is there are no shops anywhere near here that stocks more than your basic Chinese import student models 🙄 it's a fair day out trip to get to a shop with any real choice of decent horns but I definitely think that's the way to go for me. 🤔👍

 

[Pete Effamy]

I know that trekking into London etc can be a pain, but not as much as spending £2k to pretty much be as disappointed with a new horn as your old one.

Mouthpieces can be tried at home. A few shops (like Dawkes and Howarth of London) will allow you to buy mouthpieces and then after a trial period of 14 days or so you can return them if you don’t like them. You are charged postal insurance / postage and a “re-stock” fee - but it’s peanuts compared to fuel / train costs.

It’s only difficult if you have no idea what to try, as there are so many.

 

[Stephen Howard]

OK so, mine is none of that as far as I can say. It looks like a new horn tbh. I don't think it had much use before I bought it probably coming up for 15 - 20 years ago. I've not played it to death myself as I haven't been enamoured with this horn personally from the get go and my practice sessions have been sporadic over the years, (nothing to play for really no longer playing in a band 🙄🤷) but having said that, I get the feeling it's not a terrible horn 🤷 but like I've said, my experience is very limited and I've nothing to compare it with.
Maybe my inexperience is my downfall here. 🤷

Thing is, there's a good chance it was never working properly.
It really doesn't take much. An iffy pad...some misregulation...maybe even some unchecked transit damage. Everyone assumes (and why not, after all?) that a shiny new horn should be in tip-top working order - but it's simply not the reality.
So you battle on with it - and in the meantime the problem gets worse.
This is why clients often come straight from the shop to my workbench for a proper post-purchase setup....or even just a checkover (no charge for that).

It's also often the case that worrying about whether the horn is working properly prevents you from doing any meaningful work on it. You might fluff a riff and blame it on the horn when in fact the problem lies with your technique.
There are two things I almost always say to clients as they're leaving. One is "See you when it breaks!" and the other is "Any mistakes you make now are yours, not the horn's".
So until you resolved that doubt you'll never really know where to go next.

 

[Pete Effamy]

All excellent suggestions, my problem is there are no shops anywhere near here that stocks more than your basic Chinese import student models 🙄 it's a fair day out trip to get to a shop with any real choice of decent horns but I definitely think that's the way to go for me. 🤔👍

Yeah, unfortunately I think you’re going to have to bite the bullet there.

 

[teen37]

Thing is, there's a good chance it was never working properly.
It really doesn't take much. An iffy pad...some misregulation...maybe even some unchecked transit damage. Everyone assumes (and why not, after all?) that a shiny new horn should be in tip-top working order - but it's simply not the reality.
So you battle on with it - and in the meantime the problem gets worse.
This is why clients often come straight from the shop to my workbench for a proper post-purchase setup....or even just a checkover (no charge for that).

It's also often the case that worrying about whether the horn is working properly prevents you from doing any meaningful work on it. You might fluff a riff and blame it on the horn when in fact the problem lies with your technique.
There are two things I almost always say to clients as they're leaving. One is "See you when it breaks!" and the other is "Any mistakes you make now are yours, not the horn's".
So until you resolved that doubt you'll never really know where to go next.

You said it in a nutshell Stephen! 👍😉

 

[thomsax]

Can a mediocre sax like my Arbiter, be made/tweaked into a much better "not mediocre" horn?

Probably. "Much better" hard to say. To make your sax to play and sound better is not that expensive. An annual service/basic service use to help.

Y'all talk about keyword ergonomics and tone and intonation. I'm presuming I would hear the last two, but obviously that can be vastly altered with mouthpiece and Reed choice.

Ergonomics are a part of the design. Tone and intonation is very much up to the player. Ok, some saxes can be designed and built so tone and intonation can be odd. I try to do some basic embouchure excercises to maintain the pitch/evenness from top to bottom.

I played a Yamaha 25 tenor for some years. But I missed my Martin saxes.

 

[Saxlicker]

Plenty of input about your Arbiter, cost and bettering it.
So I'll ask something slightly different.
If you detected no problems with it, then had that opinion backed by knowledgeable others would you be happy to stick with it forsaking all others 😀?
If so, there are many horns below what I think is your budget (based on another thread) that should give you similar satisfaction if repairs on yours are needed and prove uneconomical.
That would be a solution.

Or on the other hand,
If you are on a journey to own a renowned leading brand that you can't get past, the cheapest way (as long as you know what would do the trick and satisfy you) is to cut out buying this and that first and having to move them on.
Neither being happy with a more budget friendly horn, trying lots of potential upgrades, or jumping in at the premium end are the right or wrong way so long as your choice doesn't get in your way.
By "In your way" I mean that could be its condition, its ergonomics and all the things you have pointed out. That could include feeling like you've spent too much or not enough.

So many rabbit holes to fall down, so to a degree it's more about understanding what you want than what satisfies others. That said advice is often solid and well intended.
Singing the praises of certain horns and for sure the easiest one to pick on there is yamaha.
Years ago it would have been pretty unanimous but other brands have been catching up.
Selmer perhaps aren't floating everyone's boat with their later stuff.
Yet I don't think any brand has taken a giant leap backwards.
You are in a good place to do the right thing for you.
I love Bob Mintzer as a player but I want his Selmer not his Eastman .