Mouthpieces Can a mediocre horn be made into a better horn? 🤔

[teen37]

@Saxlicker "forsaking all others".... Huh?
That's a loaded question for sure 🤔
I'm really not sure tbh....
I'm an 80s child/teenager so Selmer was really THE horn to own back then. I guess there is a nostalgic romance about owning an older Selmer horn, (definitely not a new one) , that certainly appeals to me for sure. I guess as I've said, I don't have enough experience with other options/brands to be able to know for certain where I'm going but time will tell hopefully in this instance 🤔🤷
Definitely lots of rabbit holes as I'm discovering here 🙄🐰😂
But y'all are being so patient with my lack of knowledge and experience, I do appreciate it guys 😘🤗

And I have to add at this point that I only have one shot at this, so it has to be right first time as there won't be another option to change again afterwards 😳 hence all the research here.

 

[turf3]

Well, the "Arbiter" is at present an unknown quantity for us who are commenting. Stephen's website has some examples of REALLY AWFUL execution of what's really a rather simple set of machinery; and it's possible you've got some of that.

But I'd bet that what you've got is what he refers to as more common - a few adjustments that make the whole horn play punk.

Again, if the thing's been put together with so much slop in the mechanism that the whole thing would have to be gone through and refitted to make it play properly, that would probably fall into the "not worth it" category - but even then, I think it'd depend on what that costs.

 

[turf3]

...

And I have to add at this point that I only have one shot at this, so it has to be right first time as there won't be another option to change again afterwards 😳 hence all the research here.
[/QUOTE]
If this comment refers to limited finances, then I'd certainly suggest finding out what a good "refettling" of your existing horn would set you back. As noted, it might well be that you need some rather basic quickly done adjustments to find that the horn plays dramatically better. Your comments that you feel it's always been a bit crank may well indicate this. You know, it could turn out to be one key foot on the upper stack that needs 0.1 mm more cork on it.

 

[turf3]

I'm sorry, my whole post just disappeared into the air. If your comment about "one shot to get it right" refers to limited finances, all the more reason to find out whether some rather simple adjustments might not change the whole playing experience. It could be one key foot on the upper stack that needs an extra 0.1 mm of cork to stop that minor leak that's been robbing performance since day one.

 

[Wonko]

All excellent suggestions, my problem is there are no shops anywhere near here that stocks more than your basic Chinese import student models 🙄 it's a fair day out trip to get to a shop with any real choice of decent horns but I definitely think that's the way to go for me. 🤔👍

Don't be affraid to travel a bit to get your hands on a good (or just suitable) horn.
I have the luxury of having a very good shop within 30 min. from my house, but I haven't bought any of my horns there. Mostly because I have bought the last 3 saxes second-hand, cheaper (and other brands) than he could provide. But I traveled quite a bit for that.
Bought my bari in Aberdeen (740 miles from here)
Bought my second tenor (a Conn 10m) in the Netherlands (2 or 3 hrs driving) in a shop that was selling the inventory before getting new owners.
Bought my curved sop in the Netherlands (4 or 5 hrs driving)
I see it as an opportunity for an outing, make it into a weekend and combine it with other fun things.

I also went to London to try out some modern tenors that might get me a 10m-sound with modern ergonomics. Made it into a weekend with my wife, was fun! And also very enlightening, got very interested in the Rampone brand after trying their tenor there.

 

[teen37]

I'm sorry, my whole post just disappeared into the air. If your comment about "one shot to get it right" refers to limited finances, all the more reason to find out whether some rather simple adjustments might not change the whole playing experience. It could be one key foot on the upper stack that needs an extra 0.1 mm of cork to stop that minor leak that's been robbing performance since day one.

It certainly does refer to limited finances as I was made redundant last year and have only seasonal work since then. Hence the "one shot" comment 😉

 

[Saxlicker]

@teen37
Well you are learning a lot
Good luck with your decision and have fun along the way.

 

[teen37]

Don't be affraid to travel a bit to get your hands on a good (or just suitable) horn.
I have the luxury of having a very good shop within 30 min. from my house, but I haven't bought any of my horns there. Mostly because I have bought the last 3 saxes second-hand, cheaper (and other brands) than he could provide. But I traveled quite a bit for that.
Bought my bari in Aberdeen (740 miles from here)
Bought my second tenor (a Conn 10m) in the Netherlands (2 or 3 hrs driving) in a shop that was selling the inventory before getting new owners.
Bought my curved sop in the Netherlands (4 or 5 hrs driving)
I see it as an opportunity for an outing, make it into a weekend and combine it with other fun things.

I also went to London to try out some modern tenors that might get me a 10m-sound with modern ergonomics. Made it into a weekend with my wife, was fun! And also very enlightening, got very interested in the Rampone brand after trying their tenor there.

OK and wow! Those are some dedicated miles you've clocked up there! Impressive for sure.
I realise I'm going to have to travel at this point, I guess I'm just not sure I'm experienced enough to know properly what I'm dealing with when I get there 😏🤷 that's my concern buying privately and combining that with long distance.

 

[PiccoloPirate]

Take your horn, after cleaning it, over to a nearby College with a music program.
Have an accomplished student try it out.

 

[teen37]

Take your horn, after cleaning it, over to a nearby College with a music program.
Have an accomplished student try it out.

That's a brilliant idea! There is a pretty decent music programme at a nearby college I think so I'll make some enquiries 😊👌👍

 

[teen37]

@teen37
Well you are learning a lot
Good luck with your decision and have fun along the way.

That's for sure 😉👍

 

[Pete Effamy]

But y'all are being so patient with my lack of knowledge and experience, I do appreciate it guys 😘🤗

The internet is wonderful for that, so long as it’s not poor advice. My mate and I followed the same (foolhardy) career path by going through conservatoires and having hundreds of classical clarinet lessons to pivot after dipping a few toes in the classical profession to jazz / pop sax. We still laugh about a few things that we just figured out that would have been very useful 30 years ago.

 

[teen37]

The internet is wonderful for that, so long as it’s not poor advice. My mate and I followed the same (foolhardy) career path by going through conservatoires and having hundreds of classical clarinet lessons to pivot after dipping a few toes in the classical profession to jazz / pop sax. We still laugh about a few things that we just figured out that would have been very useful 30 years ago.

I started when I was 8 playing classical clarinet and didn't get onto tenor sax until I was about 13 when a fellow orchestra player upgraded his La Fleur tenor for a Selmer tenor back in high school. I've not played my clarinet much since although I do love having a go at Artie Shaw now and again 😉 I got the La Fleur and really loved that tenor, sold it not long after I got married to put towards a car 😏 car didn't last two minutes... The sax would've still been here 🙄

 

[Colin the Bear]

The reason you think you're playing a mediocre horn is, because you think you're playing a mediocre horn.

The best lesson to learn is that you can't buy your sound. You have to earn it.

There are shortcuts, or maybe more accurately, direct routes to success, but you still have to put in the hours

As far as the horn itself goes, what is it doing/not doing, that is holding you back?

A lot of unintentional squeaks and peeps can be down to reed, reed strength, Reed placement and mouthpiece position.

Tone and intonation problems the same.

You have picked the most expressive yet frustrating instrument there is. Played well it can be beautiful. Played badly it can be excruciating.

I wouldn't be looking for a new horn till you've put in an hour a day for a couple of years on this one, and read as much as you can on reeds, mouthpieces etc.

This from a guy who gigged a Gear4music alto for years. All he could afford.

A pro sounds like a pro on a student horn. A student sounds like a student on any horn.

 

[turf3]

The reason you think you're playing a mediocre horn is, because you think you're playing a mediocre horn.

The best lesson to learn is that you can't buy your sound. You have to earn it.

There are shortcuts, or maybe more accurately, direct routes to success, but you still have to put in the hours

As far as the horn itself goes, what is it doing/not doing, that is holding you back?

A lot of unintentional squeaks and peeps can be down to reed, reed strength, Reed placement and mouthpiece position.

Tone and intonation problems the same.

You have picked the most expressive yet frustrating instrument there is. Played well it can be beautiful. Played badly it can be excruciating.

I wouldn't be looking for a new horn till you've put in an hour a day for a couple of years on this one, and read as much as you can on reeds, mouthpieces etc.

This from a guy who gigged a Gear4music alto for years. All he could afford.

A pro sounds like a pro on a student horn. A student sounds like a student on any horn.

All of this is true, but if leaks can't be regulated out of the horn because there's so much slop in the key hinges that adjustments aren't stable or repeatable, practicing won't make that problem go away. If the tenon to receiver joint leaks like a sieve, more practice won't make it seal better.

Just last night I assisted a student with a REALLY NICE Yamaha 62 tenor in silver plate, that she couldn't get to play anything below about low E. I was able to make it a bit better with the adjusting screws. If I had had a leak light with me, I bet I could have done a lot more. Now there was an example of a top quality professional instrument that was making the player want to slam the SOB down on the ground and walk away, just because of some leaks.

And this is why, in my opinion, the OP ought to get with a tech, explain that this is the horn she has, and she isn't going to magically be able to crap out the $$$ to get a new horn, so what will it take to get this one playing properly? (Sorry to say, it may take more than one tech to get a straight answer. The one that just wants to sell you a new horn isn't the right one. The one who says "well, this is the best a horn like this (meaning inexpensive) can be" probably isn't the right one. The one who spends all his time making students' horns kinda sorta play before the Friday night marching band program, and hasn't dealt with anything owned by an adult in the last 10 years, probably isn't the right one.)

 

[teen37]

The reason you think you're playing a mediocre horn is, because you think you're playing a mediocre horn.

The best lesson to learn is that you can't buy your sound. You have to earn it.

There are shortcuts, or maybe more accurately, direct routes to success, but you still have to put in the hours

As far as the horn itself goes, what is it doing/not doing, that is holding you back?

A lot of unintentional squeaks and peeps can be down to reed, reed strength, Reed placement and mouthpiece position.

Tone and intonation problems the same.

You have picked the most expressive yet frustrating instrument there is. Played well it can be beautiful. Played badly it can be excruciating.

I wouldn't be looking for a new horn till you've put in an hour a day for a couple of years on this one, and read as much as you can on reeds, mouthpieces etc.

This from a guy who gigged a Gear4music alto for years. All he could afford.

A pro sounds like a pro on a student horn. A student sounds like a student on any horn.

You are correct in that my thinking is down to the fact I know it's a cheap Taiwan import student model for sure and I guess because I've always struggled getting below low d on this horn regardless of mouthpieces ranging from the very cheap Hermes that came with it, to a Yamaha 4c and a lawton 6*( this was gifted to me by my sax teacher Dave Stokes back in the 80s, who was friends with Geoff Lawton 😉) and now my recently acquired Otto link tone edge.
I can sometimes get those low notes but not always cleanly. I never had this problem on my old La Fleur tenor years ago using my lawton 6*.

I guess that's why I've always blamed the horn 🤔🤷
Although I'm not discounting myself at this point as well 😳
But I am certainly working on practicing at least an hour but every couple days as time permits (you know guys... Cook, bottle washer etc etc.... 🙄😂)

 

[Pete Effamy]

The reason you think you're playing a mediocre horn is, because you think you're playing a mediocre horn.

The best lesson to learn is that you can't buy your sound. You have to earn it.

There are shortcuts, or maybe more accurately, direct routes to success, but you still have to put in the hours

As far as the horn itself goes, what is it doing/not doing, that is holding you back?

A lot of unintentional squeaks and peeps can be down to reed, reed strength, Reed placement and mouthpiece position.

Tone and intonation problems the same.

You have picked the most expressive yet frustrating instrument there is. Played well it can be beautiful. Played badly it can be excruciating.

I wouldn't be looking for a new horn till you've put in an hour a day for a couple of years on this one, and read as much as you can on reeds, mouthpieces etc.

This from a guy who gigged a Gear4music alto for years. All he could afford.

A pro sounds like a pro on a student horn. A student sounds like a student on any horn.

Yes. Yes and no. Yes, but...

It might be a mediocre horn. It might be leaking..

You might find a mouthpiece that lights up both your playing and lets the horn sing a bit more. It could even be a complete change in mouthpiece / reed combo - perhaps a smaller tip and a softer reed will make playing all over the horn far easier.

Yes, a really good player sounds really good on any old horn, but they will be hating life whilst they play it if it doesn't do this little thing or that little thing. Those little things become HUUUUGE big things in your own head.

Personally, I can play around most things: intonation: not really a problem - just deal with it. Stuffy notes here and there can be gotten around too. But; if a certain complexity of tone or tonal colour isn't there it's pretty hard to force it in many cases. That does my head in, not the other stuff.

 

[Pete Effamy]

I can sometimes get those low notes but not always cleanly. I never had this problem on my old La Fleur tenor years ago using my lawton 6*.

Would have said that if no leak present, not getting low notes is a usual clarinet-migration-embouchure-too-tight thing: except for you getting low notes on tenor. On a metal Lawton...

 

[JayeNM]

I'm not sure how to just cherry pick certain parts of a quote sorry, but yeah, maybe my wording is incorrect 🤔🤷 I did try to think of how best to phrase it but i was still under the impression of sleep (yeah, not worded correctly I know 🙄😂) so that's how it came out this morning.
Maybe your question of getting a rough horn needing work is a completely different question to mine.... Possibly 🤷🤔😉 after all I was really asking was it worth spending on a mediocre Taiwanese import in the first place... Wasn't I?... 🤔🤔🤔

Just so this thread does not FURTHER go into the 'any horn can be made to be a HOOD horn' track....

There ARE such things as mediocre or bad instruments, and saxes are no exception.

Some elements/ attributes :

Robustness of build - if it takes a knock now and again, is it going to really mess up things like post alignment, key alignment, etc ? Is the key alloy so soft that actually the horn cannot hold regulation over the usual expected amount of time ?

Precision of key fit - is there key slop/movement along the barrels and pivot rods ?

Key action - Is the keywork engineered and assembled well enough to give nice, responsive key action, across the horn ? Spring tension, precision of key casting, design of the key mechanisms to name just a few, all play a part here.

Ergos - simply, are the keys laid out to sit very comfortably under your fingers, all reaches 'easy' and natural feeling ?

Intonation - is the horn in the pocket, intonationally, up and down the registers ?

Blowing response - a HUGE ONE and one which often seperates the BETTER from the NOT. This is gonna be determined by the relationship of neck design to body tube

Tone - so MANY THREADS on this and I do not wanna digress into the usual DEBATE we all have gotten into ad infinitum. Horns DO have their intrinsic tone, this based upon the specifications of neck and body. Most certainly a tone can be leaned one way or the other by mouthpiece selection and by good intermediate-advanced players who can actually adjust their embouchure ....so there is flex there. But the reality is, horns do possess different tonalities and a player may well just dig a tonality which their horn can never really attain.

SECOND ASPECT of tonality, rarely discussed - is the tone consistent/uniform up and down the registers ? I have played many a model, vintage and modern, where its tone in one or two registers is really nice, but it 'loses' something in the other register(s) ...literally it starts sounding like a different sax.

So....the next question then becomes....can ALL OF THESE BE ADJUSTED to be made 'better' ?

 

[JayeNM]

Some of these things can.

A tech can remove leaks.

A tech can find key play and swedge the keys so it is gone (upon servicing completion)

A tech can adjust spring tensions to make the feel under the fingers be more 'snappy', or to require less finger pressure.

They can also do some minor bending of certain keytouches to get them to lay under a particular individual's fingers better

A PLAYER can experiment with mouthpiece selection to alter the to be and blowing response TO A DEGREE.

The one's which get into trickier waters, such as Intonation and Build Quality (two elements which often pop up BIGTIME on cheaper contemporary asian horns....have far less wiggle room to 'correct'.

A tech can readjust keys, swedge them for a nice fit, and get all the leaks out. But if the build quality and specs are meh...the regulation wont hold and over a shorter time than expected the key play may return. This is the biggest issue with cheap horns. You saved 700quid on the purchase but the horn keeps going out of reg every six months...so in a 24 month period you paid for three or four tech visits instead of just one COA visit, and that 700 quid 'savings' vanishes...

Intonation ....GENERALLY SPEAKING....for the most part, probably NO. A tech is limited there. It is a body/ neck design thing. A player CAN search for a mouthpiece which produces less intonational variance on the horn, however. A tech also CAN start messing with keyheights to bring everything 'closer' in cents....maybe. Or they CAN try hole crescents, but the latter can get to be an expensive endeavor timewise and 80% of repair techs have no clue what that is nor are tHey interested in learning.

Then blowing response, as it is connected to neck and body design...a mouthpiece change may not get you there.

So...yeah...some things can be adjusted. Question becomes, would that satisfy the player ?