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Playing the saxophone Bass sax - reading tuba and bass parts

lydian

Senior Member
Messages
1,311
Location
USA
It's been pretty quiet on the bass sax front over here, so I thought I'd share how I learned this new skill to open up more bass sax playing opportunities for myself. Please feel free to share your own experiences and advice here as well.

I've been playing bass sax for a few years now, mostly in a small trad jazz band where I improvise the bass lines 100% from the written chord symbols, mostly two-beat lines (root and fifth) plus some Rollini-style embellishments. But a local 10 piece trad jazz band needed someone to replace their tuba player and asked if I could do it on bass sax. I really couldn't. But I really wanted to. So I said yes and went about figuring out how to pull it off. Since this band used entirely written charts with no chord symbols, I had no choice but to learn to read the tuba/bass violin parts and play them on bass sax. Luckily I had 6 months before our first gig. Turns out I needed every bit of that to climb the mountain ahead of me.

First I had to decide how I was going to approach this problem. I could learn to read the bass clef parts as-is, then transpose each note up a step on the fly. Or I could read the bass parts as-is and just learn a new set of fingerings, i.e., read and F, finger a G and think of the new note as an F. Or I could treat it like learning an entirely new clef, Alto clef, so the note I read matched the fingerings I already knew. Since I already had a little bass clef reading skill from playing piano and tuba years back, I opted for the first approach - read as-is and transpose up a step.

My bass clef reading skills weren't all that great to begin with. So I spent the first month with flash cards until I could read the bass clef notes instantly and reliably. Next, I had to tackle the transposition. I did this with the sax, fingering the note that was one step higher than I was reading. This process took me a solid two months to get reasonably fast and mistake-free. I spent the subsequent three months reading every tuba/trombone part I could find. Unfortunately the band leader would only share a few actual bass parts with me ahead of time. The rest I'd be sight reading at the gig.

One wrinkle I only learned once I started reading lots of different parts is that tuba and bass violin parts aren't the same. Bass violin parts are written an octave higher than they sound. So I had to read up high, and play down an octave. Tuba parts are written as they sound. So they're written lower on the staff and don't have to be taken up an octave. My main difficulty was not being great at reading the higher ledger lines. Otherwise, it wasn't too terrible going from one type of part to another.

Finally, D-day came, and the first gig was upon me. Most of the tunes had fairly simple written two-beat bass lines. A few had quarter note walking lines, but at pretty brisk tempos. I'd say I did ok, at least well enough to get asked back for the next gig. At least now I have all the parts which I can practice on my own. It's still a work in progress as my old brain doesn't retain as much or work as fast as it used to.
 
A trad jazz group with fully written bass parts and no chord symbols? That's pretty weird.

Most of that repertoire is pretty straightforward changes, so if you slightly flub you can still play the changes, and probably no one will notice unless it's a specific exposed place.
 
This is similar to the baritone sax / bass clef issue, and the reverse cello reading Eb bari or Eb tuba (treble clef) parts.

Away from the world of sax, it's common to have to learn two sets of fingerings. You even get this with non-transposing instruments such as the recorder which has two sets of fingerings - C & F. In the UK low brass world, brass bands read in treble clef for all instruments except bass trombone. Orchestral low brass players read bass clef. If you play in both then you need to have two sets of fingerings.

French horn players have to do what you're doing as a great deal of music was written before the fully chromatic horn with valves was in use. The part will be written in C and labelled say "horn in E". Prior to valves, you inserted a length of tubing called a crook that was for "E". Now horn players have to read a part in C and transpose at sight to E. It's only much later (end of C19th?) that parts were written chromatically in the right key. At least it's only one transposition to Bb!
 
A trad jazz group with fully written bass parts and no chord symbols? That's pretty weird.

Most of that repertoire is pretty straightforward changes, so if you slightly flub you can still play the changes, and probably no one will notice unless it's a specific exposed place.
Not weird at all. We play hundreds of stock charts from the early jazz era which are strictly arranged with lots of tutti rhythms, key changes and odd forms. I could easily step in a hole if I don't read the chart as written. Maybe "trad jazz" is the wrong term. How would you classify groups like the California Ramblers, Fletcher Henderson, Paul Whiteman, Wolverines, Frankie Trumbauer, King Oliver and Ellington bands of the 20s and early 30s, the same as current bands like Vince Giordano's Night Hawks? Hot jazz I guess? I figured "trad jazz" was broad enough to cover Dixieland and Hot Jazz of that era. They tended to have short solo sections and rarely even had chord changes written for the soloists. Some titles include Borneo, The Mooche, The Payoff, Rose Room, My Dog Loves Your Dog, Truckin', Deep Henderson, Black and Tan Fantasy.

In any case, it may have indeed been a cakewalk for you. It was difficult for me, and I really had no choice but to read the charts one way or another. Every musician in the band, all seasoned pros, would read their parts. My memory and my ears simply aren't good enough to improvise parts for hundreds of written arrangements.

EDIT: Several sources confirm that hot jazz is indeed a type of trad jazz. Hope my examples are enough to clarify what I mean. Here's one of the simpler arrangements to show what I mean. One key change, various phrase lengths of 8, 10 and 12 bars, exposed rests, and no chord symbols in the bass part. I would definitely make a lot of mistakes attempting to improvise a bass part, even on this simple chart.
 
This is similar to the baritone sax / bass clef issue, and the reverse cello reading Eb bari or Eb tuba (treble clef) parts.

Away from the world of sax, it's common to have to learn two sets of fingerings. You even get this with non-transposing instruments such as the recorder which has two sets of fingerings - C & F. In the UK low brass world, brass bands read in treble clef for all instruments except bass trombone. Orchestral low brass players read bass clef. If you play in both then you need to have two sets of fingerings.

French horn players have to do what you're doing as a great deal of music was written before the fully chromatic horn with valves was in use. The part will be written in C and labelled say "horn in E". Prior to valves, you inserted a length of tubing called a crook that was for "E". Now horn players have to read a part in C and transpose at sight to E. It's only much later (end of C19th?) that parts were written chromatically in the right key. At least it's only one transposition to Bb!
Yeah, I wish this was as easy as reading bass clef parts on bari by just pretending it's treble clef and adding 3 sharps.

I also had to learn two sets of fingerings going from tuba to trumpet. Somehow that was much easier to keep straight in my head than the bass sax thing. I'm grateful I don't have to learn multiple clefs like trombone players.

Rollini did the same actually. He said in a piece he wrote back in the day that it was essential for a bass sax player to learn to read and transpose bass clef. I suspect he simply learned his fingerings in concert pitch and probably couldn't easily read treble clef, transposed parts.
 
Not weird at all. We play hundreds of stock charts from the early jazz era which are strictly arranged with lots of tutti rhythms, key changes and odd forms. I could easily step in a hole if I don't read the chart as written. Maybe "trad jazz" is the wrong term. How would you classify groups like the California Ramblers, Fletcher Henderson, Paul Whiteman, Wolverines, Frankie Trumbauer, King Oliver and Ellington bands of the 20s and early 30s, the same as current bands like Vince Giordano's Night Hawks? Hot jazz I guess? I figured "trad jazz" was broad enough to cover Dixieland and Hot Jazz of that era. They tended to have short solo sections and rarely even had chord changes written for the soloists. Some titles include Borneo, The Mooche, The Payoff, Rose Room, My Dog Loves Your Dog, Truckin', Deep Henderson, Black and Tan Fantasy.

In any case, it may have indeed been a cakewalk for you. It was difficult for me, and I really had no choice but to read the charts one way or another. Every musician in the band, all seasoned pros, would read their parts. My memory and my ears simply aren't good enough to improvise parts for hundreds of written arrangements.
Ah, I guess I misunderstood the nature of the repertoire. Yeah, those old bands had charts. Lots of key changes, interludes, etc. If you're going to try to capture that style, and these are big(gish) bands, you'll need charts.

Pretty much 100% of my trad jazz stuff is purely improvised, the only music used is (for some of us) lead sheets. Or chord charts for bass players, or nothing at all.

The nomenclature is funny; there isn't really a generally accepted term.

"DIxieland" has connotations of the 1950s revival; plaid weskits, armbands, and such. It also (and this is why I rarely use the term) has connotations of "dear old Dixieland" with the "people" happily singing while they labor for ol massa and missis; well, the African American elders who were the prime movers in this music very often spoke of their disdain for the image and the term.

"Trad jazz" isn't a great term, being as how it is basically the British term for the revival of the 1950s that Americans called "the Dixieland revival"; but if you say "traditional jazz" people think you mean "before jazz-rock fusion and freejazz", i.e., Art Blakey, Dizzy Gillespie, Cannonball Adderley, etc. So, many of us call it "trad".

The music you're talking about largely did NOT come from New Orleans so "New Orleans jazz" doesn't fit; besides which most people think you're talking about Preservation Hall and similar.

The charts you're talking about were played by earlier versions of the jazz big-band, but if you say big-band jazz, everyone thinks of Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman.

"Early jazz":, at least to me, means people like Buddy Bolden or King Oliver or the first recordings of Jelly Roll Morton.

But - there is a whole repertoire of jazzY music, from the 20s and 30s, a la Whiteman, played extensively in hotel ballrooms and such, mostly arranged (of course, this is where the guys who ended up filling the chairs in Goodman Ellington Basie Henderson etc's orchestras got their starts), with short jazz or jazzy improvised or semi-improvised solos. What DO we call it?
 
Ah, I guess I misunderstood the nature of the repertoire. Yeah, those old bands had charts. Lots of key changes, interludes, etc. If you're going to try to capture that style, and these are big(gish) bands, you'll need charts.

Pretty much 100% of my trad jazz stuff is purely improvised, the only music used is (for some of us) lead sheets. Or chord charts for bass players, or nothing at all.

The nomenclature is funny; there isn't really a generally accepted term.

"DIxieland" has connotations of the 1950s revival; plaid weskits, armbands, and such. It also (and this is why I rarely use the term) has connotations of "dear old Dixieland" with the "people" happily singing while they labor for ol massa and missis; well, the African American elders who were the prime movers in this music very often spoke of their disdain for the image and the term.

"Trad jazz" isn't a great term, being as how it is basically the British term for the revival of the 1950s that Americans called "the Dixieland revival"; but if you say "traditional jazz" people think you mean "before jazz-rock fusion and freejazz", i.e., Art Blakey, Dizzy Gillespie, Cannonball Adderley, etc. So, many of us call it "trad".

The music you're talking about largely did NOT come from New Orleans so "New Orleans jazz" doesn't fit; besides which most people think you're talking about Preservation Hall and similar.

The charts you're talking about were played by earlier versions of the jazz big-band, but if you say big-band jazz, everyone thinks of Glenn Miller and Benny Goodman.

"Early jazz":, at least to me, means people like Buddy Bolden or King Oliver or the first recordings of Jelly Roll Morton.

But - there is a whole repertoire of jazzY music, from the 20s and 30s, a la Whiteman, played extensively in hotel ballrooms and such, mostly arranged (of course, this is where the guys who ended up filling the chairs in Goodman Ellington Basie Henderson etc's orchestras got their starts), with short jazz or jazzy improvised or semi-improvised solos. What DO we call it?
Yeah, it's tough to classify. I'm with you, maybe "Early jazz" makes the most sense. Even though it's close to "big band" it really pre-dates the instrumentation and the style of the swing era jazz.

I play in a couple of Dixieland bands like you do and those are indeed 100% improvised. I also play in a couple of big bands where written charts must be strictly followed. The particular "early jazz" band, on the other hand, is a 10 piece, not as many horns as a big band and plays the older 20s/30s repertoire. Leader always makes us wear a tux on the gigs so we look the part. Horns mimic that early style with the hokey dotted eighth - sixteenth swing and fast/wide vibrato. Those original "stock" charts are usually very hard to read.
 

Similar threads... or are they? Maybe not but they could be worth reading anyway 😀

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