Saxophones Conn 150th Anniversary Alto Saxophone

[Ghr9204]

If that were universally true, there'd be no need for marketing. Marketing is very deliberately aimed at the gullible, average, non-astute person. Considering the potential buyer pool for a horn like this, it seems pretty insulting to me.

Did I say that it was universally true? Not everyone is astute. Marketing is what it is, to sell items. There is a need to make people aware that a seller has an item available and to describe it to include its capabilities. But I don't jump at every marketing opportunity out there.

 

[Woodpad]

I believe Ricky Sweum (Air Force Band) did some measurements or at least got some from PMauriat, he's been working closely with them / providing input to them and has some one-off prototypes they gave him. Now, it may be that they gave him some incorrect information but why would they do that?

And, I know Ricky quite well, he's a totally down to earth person but I can ask him next time I run into him. And I heard similar from Chelsea Martinez, so, maybe those are anecdotes but I would not throw them out just because.

We also have the measurements of Maarten Postma. He uses a Conn M27, but it gives an idea how the bore sizes are changed through time. The first saxophones started with a real large bore and the Yana is definitely a small bore.

bore profiles of altos

If that were universally true, there'd be no need for marketing. Marketing is very deliberately aimed at the gullible, average, non-astute person. Considering the potential buyer pool for a horn like this, it seems pretty insulting to me.

Aaaaaand we still don't know what it actually sounds like. It doesn't even matter, really. There's only going to be 40 of them, so it's not "the return of Conn" anything. It's a collector piece. End of story.

Marketing is just a tool to find out what the consumer needs, wants and will buy. It is the companies choice how to use this information.

 

[Targa]

Marketing is just a tool to find out what the consumer needs, wants and will buy. It is the companies choice how to use this information.

I think marketing is to tell the consumer what he (doesn't) need, (doesn't) want and will buy.

 

[PigSquealer]

I need a new life 🤪 Sizzled bacon is just so ‘50s.

 

[PigSquealer]

We also have the measurements of Maarten Postma. He uses a Conn M27, but it gives an idea how the bore sizes are changed through time. The first saxophones started with a real large bore and the Yana is definitely a small bore.

Great site. Yanagiswa bought Martin. I have no idea if there’s anything in common.

 

[thomsax]

We also have the measurements of Maarten Postma. He uses a Conn M27, but it gives an idea how the bore sizes are changed through time. The first saxophones started with a real large bore and the Yana is definitely a small bore.

How did they mesure the bore?

I asked a guy who is into aucustic about small or large bore saxes. He told me there was no large bore or small bore per definition. Just saxes with larger och smaller bores. A huge job to find out. It's the tone/sound that's intresting.

 

[Woodpad]

I think marketing is to tell the consumer what he (doesn't) need, (doesn't) want and will buy.

Who sold you that idea?

 

[Woodpad]

How did they mesure the bore?

I asked a guy who is into aucustic about small or large bore saxes. He told me there was no large bore or small bore per definition. Just saxes with larger och smaller bores. A huge job to find out. It's the tone/sound that's intresting.

Than see the yana as a smaller bore. There is a section measurements on his site. The last item in that section is on the measuring methods.

 

[JayeNM]

I believe Ricky Sweum (Air Force Band) did some measurements or at least got some from PMauriat, he's been working closely with them / providing input to them and has some one-off prototypes they gave him. Now, it may be that they gave him some incorrect information but why would they do that?

And, I know Ricky quite well, he's a totally down to earth person but I can ask him next time I run into him. And I heard similar from Chelsea Martinez, so, maybe those are anecdotes but I would not throw them out just because.

OK, fair enough. But I think there needs to be a clarification here:

Large Bore does not automatically = "dark toned saxophone". Plenty of vintage horns are not what one would consider "large bore" yet they have "that sound". Likewise within large bore horns there is a variety of tonalities..some brighter than others, some darker than others.

So those two things are not interchangeable/synonymous. Neck plays a huge role, as just another variable.

Mauriats always get into that debate. I know some owners who love them, and have also met a couple of ENDORSERS who actually have said they ain't no vintage American in tonality nor blowing response...

The question, should you run into him again, is pretty simple: did they devise their own spec ? Did they copy the spec of another model, to a tee ? Or did they do the latter as a start point then revise it/alter it ?

The problem is, so few companies when asked this question actually give a straight answer. They start using the good ol' "modeled after" semantics....

 

[JayeNM]

Er, no. Speaking of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt), I remember as a high school student in the late 1960's / early 1970's, the warnings about Yamaha musical instruments mirroring the same comments toward Chinese saxes in general today: "The metallurgy is soft, the keys bend easily. Why don't you spare yourself some trouble and buy a Buescher, Conn, Selmer, Buffet, Le Blanc, King, etc. saxophone?"

Yet, the newly established Yamaha distributor in Honolulu gave a sales flyer to all schools late Spring during my 11th grade, half off on their professional line of instruments. Parents were buying the student models and they had a warehouse needing clearing for a soon new shipment from Japan. My music teacher passed the flyers onto the students.

I brought it home, my dad wrote me out a check, took it to my teacher. A week or two later, he called me into his office and gave me a brand new Yamaha YAS-61 pro alto sax.

For one, the altos keys felt so much better in my hands, keywork was smoother, it played very well in tune compared with the school's student loaner.

It is no different then as it is now. An astute person will look past the marketing wording, community hear-say and distill the facts.

Gonna play Devil's advocate with this one, hope you don't 😉 mind.

The 1970's Selmer would have been a VI or VII.
The 70's Buffet would have been either a Superdynaction or an S1.
The Americans were on their way down a bit, but the S20 was still darn good and the 6M/10M's had a few years left on them.

You were given a brand-spanking new 61, at that time Yamaha's PRO model, their top shelf model.

And you say it was superior to the other school "student loaner" horns.

Would that be a surprise to anyone ?

I am doubting the school had VI's or VII's, a Super 20, an S1, or even a 6M as their bandroom horns.

So, you see, is that really a fair comparison ?

Now if you took Yama's 61 and put it up against a say....a 1975 S20 ...or a brand new VII....THAT would have been a fairer comparison and for certain the gap you experienced would have been significantly less, if extant at all, and possibly reversed to a degree.

Just a thought.....I DO agree with the 'don't believe everything everyone tells you" rule...as a rule.... 😎

 

[LostCircuits]

OK, fair enough. But I think there needs to be a clarification here:

Large Bore does not automatically = "dark toned saxophone". Plenty of vintage horns are not what one would consider "large bore" yet they have "that sound". Likewise within large bore horns there is a variety of tonalities..some brighter than others, some darker than others.

So those two things are not interchangeable/synonymous. Neck plays a huge role, as just another variable.

Mauriats always get into that debate. I know some owners who love them, and have also met a couple of ENDORSERS who actually have said they ain't no vintage American in tonality nor blowing response...

The question, should you run into him again, is pretty simple: did they devise their own spec ? Did they copy the spec of another model, to a tee ? Or did they do the latter as a start point then revise it/alter it ?

The problem is, so few companies when asked this question actually give a straight answer. They start using the good ol' "modeled after" semantics....

I was just "objecting" to the "not a single one" statement. specifically in the context of lack of real definition of what a large bore actually is, compared to a small bore.
It's not like high pitch vs. low pitch, there are probably lots of in-betweens around. And yes, the "modeled after" is the quintessential vagary.

Between working against the onset of winter and all my injuries, I've been pretty much absent from the local music scene but I'll try to follow up with the PMauriat owners. Which still leaves the B&S, I have two of them so come Winter, I may be able to take some measurements but I am, quite honestly, a little reluctant to take apart a perfectly set up horn. We'll see...

 

[JayeNM]

There's only going to be 40 of them, so it's not "the return of Conn" anything. It's a collector piece. End of story.

This is what is most baffling to me.

Would a company really go and redesign an entire body (and ostensibly neck), then tweak the keywork to fit all that, then have them produced in factory....for the purpose of 'trying out' just 40 on the sax community ?

That is, arguably, a lotta work to do for only 40 testers.....

*I understand the first reply to this would be "well, if they TOOK, then they produce thousands more".

To which my retort might be - "If they are as special as Conn-Selmer claims they are, why not just ca-ching on 2000 from the get go ?" Or do they not have the confidence ???

 

[JayeNM]

We also have the measurements of Maarten Postma. He uses a Conn M27, but it gives an idea how the bore sizes are changed through time. The first saxophones started with a real large bore and the Yana is definitely a small bore.

bore profiles of altos

Really INTERESTING graph. Maarten knows his stuff, he's a great guy.... but I do wonder... why THOSE particular models ? It is absent of some of the "Biggest Sounding" models of all....Conn Artist, Kings, Keilwerths as a few absences which pop out at me....

 

[Woodpad]

Great site. Yanagiswa bought Martin. I have no idea if there’s anything in common.

Only the Yana made Martins.

 

[Woodpad]

Really INTERESTING graph. Maarten knows his stuff, he's a great guy.... but I do wonder... why THOSE particular models ? It is absent of some of the "Biggest Sounding" models of all....Conn Artist, Kings, Keilwerths as a few absences which pop out at me....

Maarten is more interested in the early history of the saxophone. At the moment he is looking at early German and early North American Saxophones. Eventually he will come to the famous brands that followed this period. He mentioned that the M27 he used was not that far from the M6.

 

[Ghr9204]

Gonna play Devil's advocate with this one, hope you don't 😉 mind.

OK, on , (follow the 💰?) Your honour, 👨‍⚖️ my defence:

You were given a brand-spanking new 61, at that time Yamaha's PRO model, their top shelf model. And you say it was superior to the other school "student loaner" horns. Would that be a surprise to anyone ? I am doubting the school had VI's or VII's, a Super 20, an S1, or even a 6M as their bandroom horns. So, you see, is that really a fair comparison ?

For a 17 YO, it was an eye opener. 👀 I lived in a rural Hawaiian town with po' folks 👫 next to a Samoan village. 🇼🇸 Kids even went to school barefoot. 🐾 (Less to carry to the beach to surf.) 🏄‍♂️ The rich kids lived in and near Honolulu. 💍 When one's parents feed you Ramen, 🍜 do you even think about the rich kid's horn?

Now if you took Yama's 61 and put it up against a say....a 1975 S20 ...or a brand new VII....THAT would have been a fairer comparison and for certain the gap you experienced would have been significantly less, if extant at all, and possibly reversed to a degree.

@helen had this to say in:

Differences between Selmer Bundy and Bundy II Sax Models

Yesterday I was browsing The Saxophone Museum website. Their proprietor, a music store is the SaxQuest Inc., 2114 Cherokee St., Saint Louis, MO 63118 | 314-664-1234. https://www.saxquest.com/ I came across an very interesting but amazing 19 year old conversation at...

www.woodwindforum.com

In all seriousness, when I was still teaching, I generally recommended my students start on Yamaha. Way easier to blow than the older stuff we started on, and keep their regulation much better. Also, their intonation is usually 100%, so when a student is out, I know it's the student, and not the horn. It's easier on them, and I have seen them progress faster and with less frustration when they are not fighting a horn.

The Yamaha's were bread-and-butter 🍞 🧈 instruments.

Just a thought.....I DO agree with the 'don't believe everything everyone tells you" rule...as a rule.... 😎

I said this earlier regarding this sax, which applies to all other pro saxes:

Q: Will I sound like Paul Desmond with this sax?
A: No, you will sound like you.
Q: If I buy that Berg pre-Larson metal mouthpiece replica for $1,000 plus this sax, could I sound like David Liebman?
A: No, you will sound like you.

I rest my case. 💼

 

[thomsax]

Than see the yana as a smaller bore. There is a section measurements on his site. The last item in that section is on the measuring methods.

After the mesurements the saxes are played to found out how to identify a sax with large(er) or small(er) bores?

 

[JayeNM]

OK, on , (follow the 💰?) Your honour, 👨‍⚖️ my defence:

For a 17 YO, it was an eye opener. 👀 I lived in a rural Hawaiian town with po' folks 👫 next to a Samoan village. 🇼🇸 Kids even went to school barefoot. 🐾 (Less to carry to the beach to surf.) 🏄‍♂️ The rich kids lived in and near Honolulu. 💍 When one's parents feed you Ramen, 🍜 do you even think about the rich kid's horn?

@helen had this to say in:

Differences between Selmer Bundy and Bundy II Sax Models

Yesterday I was browsing The Saxophone Museum website. Their proprietor, a music store is the SaxQuest Inc., 2114 Cherokee St., Saint Louis, MO 63118 | 314-664-1234. https://www.saxquest.com/ I came across an very interesting but amazing 19 year old conversation at...

www.woodwindforum.com

The Yamaha's were bread-and-butter 🍞 🧈 instruments.

I said this earlier regarding this sax, which applies to all other pro saxes:

I rest my case. 💼

😎

No question, a 23 is quicker in the keywork than a Bundy (but not a Conn 50M, the "lowly" Shooting Star - a horn which when in good serviced shape is as good as any 23, truth be told). I mean there's a reason that the Yama's took over the market. The best the US was producing in the early 80's was the Bundy 2, the newfangled Conn 18M and 20M (which although were noble attempts, ultimately were inferior to the Shooting Star, unfortunately) and student Armstrongs...that's the BEST the US could muster in that historical window...

Sorta like the car industry situation...in the era of the K-Car and the Mustang 2 😳, US mfr's simply didn't offer a good, reliable, gas-saving model (although the AMC Gremlin was just plain COOL, despite it being of an engineering which was already 15 years old at their introduction)...so the Japanese came in with better-made products which simply did what folks needed them to for the same price or cheaper.

That is ALL a Yama 21/23 has EVER been...even today, the 200 and 280 are the same, just dressed up 23's. Perfectly utilitarian instruments, nothing more. Matter of fact, they are LESS, because 21's and 23's in the 80's were affordable. Anyone today looking to buy Yama's base model would be paying $1500-1800 😱

And looking back, by the time UMI took over the American brands in the later 80's - and actually introduced some redesigns which were pretty GOOD saxes (Conn 24M, King Empire, Conn 22M, King 662, Armstrong 3050/55, Conn 34M, Conn 14M Baritone, etc), all they could do was counterpunch Yamaha's takeover of the market, where they managed to stay in the fight respectably, for around 15 years before they got bought-out by Selmer Inc (formerly Selmer USA, currently Conn-Selmer).

But that wasn't what you wrote in your prior reply.

You commented that your 61 blew away the school loaner student horns. Which, again...of course it would, right ? You put a brand new Pro Yamaha up against a bunch of American student models from the 70's-80's which had probably at best received M*A*S*H* repairs for most of their lives....which horn is gonna give the better impression ?

(Regarding Bundys, let me add this ....they were maligned when you and I were growing up (which island were you on, BTW ?)...but the reality is - when the more budget asian fare started flooding the market starting in the 90's....guess what models slowly developed a NEW appreciation ? The old American student horns. So their reputation, lo and behold, has been salvaged significantly in the student horn world).

I have lost track of the number of techs who when confronted with the question: "I need a sax for my kid but cannot afford a used Yamaha or Jupe....should I get a new asian cheapie for $400-500 ? or a Bundy 1 or 2 ?"

...always reply "get the Bundy". I mean, it's literally almost unanimous opinion. And I concur. Every time I refurb a Bundy, I gotta admit , by today's yardstick, these are respectable saxes still.

Helen's article may be true - but it leaves out something pretty significant: A used 23 alto in play shape, circa 2012, not pristine but not bad looking,, ran around $400-450. A used Bundy ran $250.
Today, a used 23 in good play shape runs $600-750 (really it does)...a used Bundy 1 or 2, or Conn Shooting Star... runs $375-450.
Besides perhaps Allora , there is currently NO used sax make/model, of good quality and reliability, which can exsist at that Bundy/Conn price point.

A lotta folks simply do not have the budget to spend $650 on a used Alto, a 'non-essential' for a kid who may drop music within a couple years. That's the reality.
So, the lowly Bundy still has a leg up on others...in real-life, common contexts, even today.

But yeah, there was a reason the US makers lost their market, certainly. And yeah no doubt, just like the sorta nationalistic pushback many Americans had to Japanese autos, probably the academic music corner of the country would also have initially tried to resist the Japanese models elbowing in....
.
So I agreed with you, we cannot pass judgment on this pseudo-Conn limited model quite yet. I just see some red flags which indicate final judgment will not be anything glowing, is all. But indeed, we don't know. Maybe it'll be pretty good...

@Grumps will tell us when he and Marty playtest one at a trade show, though.

 

[JayeNM]

After the mesurements the saxes are played to found out how to identify a sax with large(er) or small(er) bores?

This is where the danger comes in...you likely cannot identify a large or small bore sax, blindfold playtested, simply by tonal quality or blowing response....I posit....

 

[JayeNM]

Maarten is more interested in the early history of the saxophone. At the moment he is looking at early German and early North American Saxophones. Eventually he will come to the famous brands that followed this period. He mentioned that the M27 he used was not that far from the M6.

Great, hopefully he will add the likes of a 6M or Keilwerth New King, Martin Comm, Boosh THC, maybe a Super 20....etc. That would be really interesting to know.....