Saxophones Conn 150th Anniversary Alto Saxophone

[LostCircuits]

Complex taper, larger bore design with precise tone hole locations and heights

I am wondering what is a complex taper? Is it modeled after a coke bottle?

 

[thomsax]

This is very true. However, it's not the lack of taste that makes this one look so ridiculous. It's purely selling on the basis of historic success, rather than current merit. The sellers are basically saying 'We used to produce some nice saxes, so now, on the basis of that history, you should buy this overpriced mediocre one'

I can't say if this Conn is an "overpriced mediocre one". Never been near it and I will probably never get close to it. I like to see and read about new saxes. I like saxes.

I can't see any wrong with making saxes just to show what "we are able to do" as long it's not fraud. It's a part of the business. I have seen many concept cars over the years. UMI made the "King Super 21". They took an Armstrong 3055 (wide bow) with rolled toneholes and added new keys, and some other things. Just made around 10 of them.

Here is an alto for sale on Ebay.

RARE-King Super 21 Alto Saxophone-1994 | eBay

 

[turf3]

I am wondering what is a complex taper? Is it modeled after a coke bottle?

All saxophones have a "complex taper". Mostly it's due to the results of forming the bends. A certain degree of deviation from a true conical shape is needed even on straight sopranos to keep the octaves in line (see the contraction of the flute headjoint for a better-known example).

I have read, for example, that a tight curve in a tube makes it act acoustically as if it were a straight tube of larger diameter - which seems to me to imply that makers might constrict the tube diameter in sax bows or the loop of baritones. On the other hand, the distance around the bend is not constant - shorter on the inside, longer on the outside - so that's going to affect the way the standing wave nodes and antinodes form in that area. Again, you can tweak tone hole positions, or tube diameter, or both.

I will be frankly astonished if someone takes measurements of the bore of this thing and we find anything different than the Selmer Super Action 80 (as copied by every Far Eastern maker) except maybe a bit of tweaking of the neck taper.

 

[LostCircuits]

All saxophones have a "complex taper". Mostly it's due to the results of forming the bends. A certain degree of deviation from a true conical shape is needed even on straight sopranos to keep the octaves in line (see the contraction of the flute headjoint for a better-known example).

I have read, for example, that a tight curve in a tube makes it act acoustically as if it were a straight tube of larger diameter - which seems to me to imply that makers might constrict the tube diameter in sax bows or the loop of baritones. On the other hand, the distance around the bend is not constant - shorter on the inside, longer on the outside - so that's going to affect the way the standing wave nodes and antinodes form in that area. Again, you can tweak tone hole positions, or tube diameter, or both.

I will be frankly astonished if someone takes measurements of the bore of this thing and we find anything different than the Selmer Super Action 80 (as copied by every Far Eastern maker) except maybe a bit of tweaking of the neck taper.

True, if you add the bow and crook, there will be some complexity. And I did not know about the deviation from the true conical shape in straight sopranos.

Every day there is a chance to learn something new!

 

[JayeNM]

From the Kessler site there’s a hint of bringing the brand back.

The brand is Conn-Selmer, as it has been whether called that or Selmer Inc., since the early 2000's when they bought out UMI... so there isn't anything to "Bring Back" really (?)

Should this succeed, it's still being made by Conn-Selmer. The design is still Conn-Selmer. The assembly being in US ? I would never criticize that, I support that. But that doesn't make it a resuscitation of Conn, IMHO.

 

[JayeNM]

The fact that Conn-Selmer is taking on a bold attempt to return is very honorable.

Well...it's either 'honorable' or it's a gimmick, just another riding the coattails of vintage popularity but NOT really reproducing anything nor engrineering anything which gives it that, performance wise.

THAT is the question we cannot answer by looking at ads, hype, and photos. So the jury is out...

"ConnSonic Treatment"...special "Large Bore Taper"...tells us zero, absolutely zero, really. So I would not be hooked in with these marketing semantics, necessarily.

I mean, to re-use a name and a in-some-ways-a-sorta-facsimile old engraving , but slap it on a product which design or performance wise has no relationship to the 'classic Conn'...isn't particularly laudable. It is typical marketing bs for this millennium.

But to actually have designed a DIFFERENT body and/or neck design from what Conn-Selmer already rolls off of their assembly lines ?
That becomes something potentially interesting.

We dunno which it is, though. Only way to know is again by playtesting, comparing, maybe even measuring.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I will be frankly astonished if someone takes measurements of the bore of this thing and we find anything different than the Selmer Super Action 80

I would also be astonished. When researching Asian manufacturers regarding the doomed Cafesaxophone saxophone project, I was offered by one agent to have either SA80 or Selmer MKVI copy body tubes. I wasn't really intersted in either and so intended to go a more cusotm route. I would not be surprised if the so-called MKVI tube was the same as the SA80 II. Or vice versa.

The assembly being in US

But, but, but it's not just anyoldwhere in the US, it's in actual Elkhart no less! 🙂(not Elkmart)

 

[Jimmymack]

I would also be astonished. When researching Asian manufacturers regarding the doomed Cafesaxophone saxophone project, I was offered by one agent to have either SA80 or Selmer MKVI copy body tubes. I wasn't really intersted in either and so intended to go a more cusotm route. I would not be surprised if the so-called MKVI tube was the same as the SA80 II. Or vice versa.

But, but, but it's not just anyoldwhere in the US, it's in actual Elkhart no less! 🙂(not Elkmart)

That’s obviously important as the knowledge and skills will have been passed on genetically to the current techs.

 

[turf3]

The brand is Conn-Selmer, as it has been whether called that or Selmer Inc., since the early 2000's when they bought out UMI... so there isn't anything to "Bring Back" really (?)

Should this succeed, it's still being made by Conn-Selmer. The design is still Conn-Selmer. The assembly being in US ? I would never criticize that, I support that. But that doesn't make it a resuscitation of Conn, IMHO.

Again, taking boxes of keys, putting pads in, mounting them on a body, and then floating the pads and regulating the action is basic work, done all over the US by repair techs every day. There's probably a bit of filing on key tubes to get them to fit correctly. I estimate that this work would take about 8 man-hours per unit (remember, they don't have to clean things up, they have all the assembly fixtures they need, and they can adjust by bending). Again, if imputed labor+OH (direct labor, indirect factory labor, and factory overhead) runs about $100/hr in US and about $50/hr in the Far Eastern countries where the other versions of this are assembled, you're talking about an increase of $50/hr x 8 hrs or $400 manufacturing cost increase. (These imputed labor+overhead costs are drawn from my direct experience, by the way.)

So the whole thing, with all the marketeering verbiage, still comes down to:

- Take an existing product
- Make cosmetic modifications (octave key, wire key guards, receiver shape) and a couple mechanical ones (headless adjusting screws (WRONG direction to go!!!), tapered tenon ID (just a different program on the CNC lathe).
- Design up a new engraving pattern
- Select a fugly but trendy finish
- Locate the semi-skilled final assembly in a location that sounds as if it were being done by elderly craftsmen with leather aprons and long white beards (it'll actually be the folks that got laid off at the RV plant across town) - "Built in Elkhart the cradle of American band instruments!" - yeah, 130 years ago. Dude, all those "Elkhart craftsmen" were laid off or retired 30 years ago or more.
- Offer it as an insanely overpriced "Special Edition!!!"

If you sell 5, or 10, of the insanely overpriced "Special Edition", you've already more than paid back the "development" cost (most of which is in the ad campaign)>

Selmer, Gibson, Fender, and many other consumer goods companies are actively engaging in just this exact business plan. It appeals to the private equity overlords that own several of these companies, as the actual investment in "development" is small and easy, mostly can just be outsourced, doesn't require hiring all those pesky engineers, acousticians, test technicians, etc. - just some "marketeers" that you've probably got on staff at corporate anyway. They just need to learn the catchphrases for saxophones like they learned the catchphrases for fashion watches last month and for sneakers the month before that.

 

[PigSquealer]

But, but, but it's not just anyoldwhere in the US, it's in actual Elkhart no less! 🙂(not Elkmart)

Meh, Elkhart. I would be more impressed if they had used one of Conn-Selmers vacant buildings in Elkhorn. One with real US sax history. The building still stands.

 

[Grumps]

Well...it's either 'honorable' or it's a gimmick, just another riding the coattails of vintage popularity but NOT really reproducing anything nor engrineering anything which gives it that, performance wise.

THAT is the question we cannot answer by looking at ads, hype, and photos. So the jury is out...

Well, if I get a hold of one at the Symposium and it gurgles on low B... then we'll know it's a true Conn alto.

 

[PigSquealer]

Well, if I get a hold of one at the Symposium and it gurgles on low B... then we'll know it's a true Conn alto.

Looking forward to the live streaming of that !

 

[Grumps]

Looking forward to the live streaming of that !

Will have to be on Marty's phone. Mine is a flip phone with a data block, so no go there. Besides... weren't you supposed to come to this one?

 

[PigSquealer]

For an expensive present for myself I would rather have bought one of these.

BENTLEY NEWSROOM : Speed Six

The Speed Six, widely recognized as Bentley's most successful racing car to date, holds an esteemed position as one of the most important Bentleys in history. Now, we proudly present the newest addition to this legendary lineage: Speed Six Car Zero.

www.bentleymedia.com

Only two million pounds but unfortunately all sold.

All that money and you don't get a roof.
Beautiful though.

A snappy Conn sparewheel cover on the Bentley could be a very effencient communication. Easy and no offending message ..... ! Picture from the book "Celebrating the Saxophone", Paul Lindemeyer.
View attachment 31400

I wonder if the coach has a non-offensive retro horn 🤣

 

[jazzdoh]

Well I wonder whether all this will lead to a new Conn 6M and 10M.
I have never owned a 10M but had a 6M decades ago and from what I remember I had great problems with the left hand pinky mechanism but it had a great sound that I can still remember to this day.

 

[PigSquealer]

Well I wonder whether all this will lead to a new Conn 6M and 10M.
I have never owned a 10M but had a 6M decades ago and from what I remember I had great problems with the left hand pinky mechanism but it had a great sound that I can still remember to this day.

According to @JayeNM and @turf3 the 6M, 14m, altos and 10m, 16m tenors had the same bodies. Just a difference in refined key work. All had that great Conn sound. All made for many years.
Why didn’t they just modernize the key work and use a great body ?

 

[turf3]

According to @JayeNM and @turf3 the 6M, 14m, altos and 10m, 16m tenors had the same bodies. Just a difference in refined key work. All had that great Conn sound. All made for many years.
Why didn’t they just modernize the key work and use a great body ?

Actually, I got it from JayeNM.

The tooling for the Conn bodies has undoubtedly been scrapped decades ago. The prints may or may not exist (consider that the company's been bought three or four times, the last tubes made off that old design would go back to maybe 1985, so 40 years ago. How many 5-S programs since then have shredded the old prints for products no longer being made?). Doing a comprehensive set of measurements of a 6M body, drawing up the new body with the tone holes aligned for new keywork, etc., would be a pretty big endeavor for a limited edition. I can't swear to it, but I'd be frankly astonished if "Conn-Selmer", a company that hasn't employed any saxophone acousticians or design engineers in probably 40 years, did this.

What is vastly more probable is that they simply took an existing Selmer Super Action 80 copy body (which, after all, will have excellent intonation and a good tone) and mechanism (which after all if you apply QC to it, will give you a slick reliable mechanism), did the few cosmetic tweaks we've talked about - MAYBE they picked a neck taper that's a bit different but didn't prang the intonation too much - and issued it as a "Limited Special Edition" with a heaping helping of marketeering's finest wordsmithing.

 

[turf3]

Well I wonder whether all this will lead to a new Conn 6M and 10M.
...

No.

 

[jazzdoh]

No.

It does say on Kessler’s site regarding to the reintroduction of the Conn brand, I’m not saying that they will be able to do the old model’s justice for future horns but if they have the rights then I can’t see them ignoring the 6M and 10M branding.

 

[Jimmymack]

I think the difficulty is that it's the reintroduction of the Conn brand name which is something altogether different. Conn as a company that exists to make and develop saxophones no longer exists. I would like to be proved wrong.