Saxophones Conn 150th Anniversary Alto Saxophone

[jazzdoh]

I purchased a Venus Chinese straight soprano and it actually plays as well as an intermediate.

I agree with you but Conn is in the price category of the higher end top 4 sax makers, so there is a big difference.

 

[Ghr9204]

I agree with you but Conn is in the price category of the higher end top 4 sax makers, so there is a big difference.

I just used that as a case in point. What we lack thus far is more feedback from professional players beyond marketing.

 

[JayeNM]

A company would not go through all this effort to produce a substandard musical product.

They do it everyday and have been doing it for a generation, ever since the vintage horn resurgence fueled by the internet began at the turn of the century.

In its most innocuous state, its just providing an 'antique finish' on their current models to make the horn appear old.

In sleazier instances, it is claiming that the model is a 'clone' or 'based off of' a famous vintage model when all they have doe is use a stock, readily available asian-made body and outfitted it with furniture (keyguards, neck brace, bell brace, keytouches) which mimic those of the famous vintage model. Then implied or intimated in their marketing that the horn performs 'like' the original vintage model, only 'better'.

(I fear that this is what is being done here, only because the over-the-top marketing descriptors which have these days become sorta typical red flags are present here).

But I DO agree with you, we can't draw conclusions based upon the material they have presented, yet....the only real answers would come from someone who -

1) playtests one

2) playtest compares one with something contemporary top-shelf model w/ a really solid-reputation.

3) playtest compares one with an original vintage Conn

4) has an objective tech assessment as to the quality and precision of the build/fabrication.

4 small hurdles to clear, none of them asking for too much, IMHO.

Clearing hurdle 1) doesn't get us much, it just answers whether the players initial impression was positive , neutral, or negative. So say someone comes back here and posts that they tried one at a trade show and they liked it, overall. That's something. But a $7g horn requires more vetting than that, IMHO.

2), 3), 4) answers the larger questions,.

 

[jazzdoh]

I think it ought to be call Conncussion because that's what I would get if I bought one and introduced it to my wife.

 

[turf3]

...

A company would not go through all this effort to produce a substandard musical product.
...

What, pray tell, is the "all this effort" of which you speak?

They designed up some wire key guards to fit the existing mounts of sheet metal guards. They had the CNC lathe program for the neck tenon changed to put a taper. They designed a new neck key and neck receiver. They had someone draw up an engraving pattern, and they selected a pseudo-antique pseudo-patinated finish treatment. And they're having buckets of keys shipped to Elkhart for final assembly, which is probably 4-8 man-hours of work at an imputed labor+overhead rate of $100 at most, offsetting 4-8 man-hours of work at an imputed labor+overhead rate that's probably on the order of $50/hr. (For those who don't want to calculate, that means a probable cost increase of $200 to $400.)

It's very cheap to do these things. I'd roughly estimate the manufacturing cost increase over the standard hown at no more than $1000 per unit. Probably it's a lot less. The NRE costs (non recurring engineering costs) i.e., design work, tooling, etc. would probably be less than $20,000.

The "Effort" of which you speak is primarily advertising and marketeering.

I rather doubt that this horn is "substandard". I expect it has very much the same design, fabrication, and assembly quality of the average good quality Chinese or Taiwanese instrument - which can be very good indeed. But it's not something special except in its cosmetics.

If the manufacturing cost of the average good quality Chinese or Taiwanese instrument is, say, $1000, and this one is $2000, and they increase their average selling price from $3000 to $6000, that means it'd take them ten unit sales to recover the entire cost of the project.

This is exactly why mature consumer product companies owned by private equity who have no interest in or ability to do actual product development, LOVE LOVE LOVE "Special Edition" products. A bit of inexpensive NRE (probably outsourced), an ad campaign, minimal changes to the product itself (mostly cosmetic), and if you sell a handful you've paid for the product, and every one after that's just profit.

So,

"New Look! Same Great Product!"

 

[JayeNM]

I thought @Jimmymack gave a good reply on engraving quality:

Some decent points, yes... but again, they are trying to sell a $7g horn here...so if they are training engravers to hand-engrave....the FINAL PRODUCT horn should not have 'learning curve' quality work on it...no ?

On eFlay now and again a sax body shows up, or even just a sax bell....which has multiple engravings on it, I have seen this from the original Conn Elkhart factory, also from Buescher...then occasionally seemingly from Beaugnier...they are sorta funny ....

They were clearly bell pieces which engravers were practicing on, so it might be engraved with two different models or it might read "Elkhart" two or three times...on the Beaugnier ones they have both the Vito engraving AND the Noblet engraving, lol....

So THAT is what you do with engravers needing practice. How much does an Alto bellpiece cost to fabricate in your factory, left bare brass ?

You don't go put that on the final $7g product, IMHO.

 

[Pete Thomas]

China produces today in the form of budget saxophones, some are actually quite good.

There are also saxophones being produced in China that are very good. I was aware of some being sold at over €4000. I’m not sure they have officially announced country of manufacture for this but Vietnam was mentioned I think.

I guess engravers are rare these days and you have to take who you can get

I would expect any company to audition a prototype, and the quality of engraving as shown in my posts above would never have made it onto a saxophone I intended to brand. Just saying oh well at least it’s done by hands is not good enough.

There are still engravers out there, many people have different objects engraved, e.g. guns.

A company would not go through all this effort to produce a substandard musical product.

Agreed and there is no reason to think that apart from the engraving anything relate is substandard. But time will tell.

 

[Grumps]

Whats wrong with it being an alto...

Yes

 

[LostCircuits]

Some decent points, yes... but again, they are trying to sell a $7g horn here...so if they are training engravers to hand-engrave....the FINAL PRODUCT horn should not have 'learning curve' quality work on it...no ?

On eFlay now and again a sax body shows up, or even just a sax bell....which has multiple engravings on it, I have seen this from the original Conn Elkhart factory, also from Buescher...then occasionally seemingly from Beaugnier...they are sorta funny ....

They were clearly bell pieces which engravers were practicing on, so it might be engraved with two different models or it might read "Elkhart" two or three times...on the Beaugnier ones they have both the Vito engraving AND the Noblet engraving, lol....

So THAT is what you do with engravers needing practice. How much does an Alto bellpiece cost to fabricate in your factory, left bare brass ?

You don't go put that on the final $7g product, IMHO.

Arguably engravers are kind of far in between but if it is a run of only 40 pieces, Jaice DuMars is still out there and I am sure he could have at least pitched in with advice and guidance while the rest of the product was still "under development".

And I don't think he would have upped his nose at that.

 

[Targa]

The employees at Timpsons engraving dog tags do better work than that.

 

[Jimmymack]

Just for the record I was being ironic, in case you missed it. Oh, there I go again.

 

[Digger2054]

I've held off replying, and read through the replies.

I still don't get it!?

You can pick up a Conn 6M, NWII from a reputable (UK) store for less than this 'Conn'... I can't fathom why you'd stump up the money they're asking for something trying to mimic a Conn?

Ergonomics? That's part of playing the old horns. Investment? They're not making any more original Conn's either.

I'm obviously not their target market 🙁

 

[Pete Thomas]

I can't fathom why you'd stump up the money they're asking for something trying to mimic a Conn?

That's the thing though, they do not say which model it's supposed to be referencing

Kessler site says

• Complex Large Bore Taper for vintage American sax tone

Nothing about 6m, just a generic vintage American sax tone (as if there is such a thing)

Conn/Selmer site says

• Complex taper, larger bore design with precise tone hole locations and heights
• ConnSonic treatment

Again nothing about the model its based on, whether 6m or NW

But the ConnSonic treatment would imply neither, I'm sure back in the day they would have mentioned this - or did they?

 

[Jimmymack]

I’m sure it’s a perfectly good horn. They made some bad decisions regarding finish and some terrible decisions about marketing. Then we get to the price which is probably $2-3000 over what would be expected and accepted.

 

[Ghr9204]

I would expect any company to audition a prototype, and the quality of engraving as shown in my posts above would never have made it onto a saxophone I intended to brand. Just saying oh well at least it’s done by hands is not good enough.

There are still engravers out there, many people have different objects engraved, e.g. guns.

Having worked as a construction administrator on large projects, sometimes contractors run into availability of suitable qualified local people to meet time schedules. If there is no one local within reasonable commuting distances, then one incurs travel, lodging and incidental costs. This may account for the higher costs of prototyping, reflected in the initial sales cost until stabilized and reduced during following years of production.

I imagine on the production of these saxophones to meet deadlines, that there was a tight window for the engraving to be done on all 40 saxes during the production cycle. This and travel distances may have eliminated a few who otherwise might have done a better job of engraving.

US is more spread out than UK and EU due to land mass. 17 years ago, we needed a good size water tank constructed on a hill to a government boarding school for the indigenous in Crownpoint, New Mexico, about half way between Albuquerque and Gallup and 30 miles north. It's been a while, but that team of specialists to build it came from a location back east about 800 miles away. They did it quickly, it was up in a couple weeks, but it cost us a bit more because of travel and boarding costs, reflected in the contract cost.

The skilled artist to paint the Indian head in the school's gym floor center for the basket ball court came from I think Santa Fe.

Then too, what is not said is that there are additional saxes beyond these 40 immediately marketed in the mix. These are say, the demonstrator models used by the company for marketing and developing marketing materials, videos, sound clips, etc. And, the demonstrators for trade shows, symposiums, and possibly shared with various other distributors, perhaps in other countries. Although there were 40 for sales to the general public, perhaps there were double that?

I know it may sound speculative at this point, but from a practical standpoint, I can see where there can be a larger picture.

This may account for the higher cost versus a finalized non-150th Anniversary production model.

 

[helen]

What, pray tell, is the "all this effort" of which you speak?

They designed up some wire key guards to fit the existing mounts of sheet metal guards. They had the CNC lathe program for the neck tenon changed to put a taper. They designed a new neck key and neck receiver. They had someone draw up an engraving pattern, and they selected a pseudo-antique pseudo-patinated finish treatment. And they're having buckets of keys shipped to Elkhart for final assembly, which is probably 4-8 man-hours of work at an imputed labor+overhead rate of $100 at most, offsetting 4-8 man-hours of work at an imputed labor+overhead rate that's probably on the order of $50/hr. (For those who don't want to calculate, that means a probable cost increase of $200 to $400.)

It's very cheap to do these things. I'd roughly estimate the manufacturing cost increase over the standard hown at no more than $1000 per unit. Probably it's a lot less. The NRE costs (non recurring engineering costs) i.e., design work, tooling, etc. would probably be less than $20,000.

The "Effort" of which you speak is primarily advertising and marketeering.

I rather doubt that this horn is "substandard". I expect it has very much the same design, fabrication, and assembly quality of the average good quality Chinese or Taiwanese instrument - which can be very good indeed. But it's not something special except in its cosmetics.

If the manufacturing cost of the average good quality Chinese or Taiwanese instrument is, say, $1000, and this one is $2000, and they increase their average selling price from $3000 to $6000, that means it'd take them ten unit sales to recover the entire cost of the project.

This is exactly why mature consumer product companies owned by private equity who have no interest in or ability to do actual product development, LOVE LOVE LOVE "Special Edition" products. A bit of inexpensive NRE (probably outsourced), an ad campaign, minimal changes to the product itself (mostly cosmetic), and if you sell a handful you've paid for the product, and every one after that's just profit.

So,

"New Look! Same Great Product!"

Let me ask you this: What proof do you have for your claims that:

They designed up some wire key guards to fit the existing mounts of sheet metal guards. They had the CNC lathe program for the neck tenon changed to put a taper. They designed a new neck key and neck receiver. They had someone draw up an engraving pattern, and they selected a pseudo-antique pseudo-patinated finish treatment. And they're having buckets of keys shipped to Elkhart for final assembly, which is probably 4-8 man-hours of work at an imputed labor+overhead rate of $100 at most, offsetting 4-8 man-hours of work at an imputed labor+overhead rate that's probably on the order of $50/hr. (For those who don't want to calculate, that means a probable cost increase of $200 to $400.)

 

[turf3]

Having worked as a construction administrator on large projects, sometimes contractors run into availability of suitable qualified local people to meet time schedules. If there is no one local within reasonable commuting distances, then one incurs travel, lodging and incidental costs. This may account for the higher costs of prototyping, reflected in the initial sales cost until stabilized and reduced during following years of production.

I imagine on the production of these saxophones to meet deadlines, that there was a tight window for the engraving to be done on all 40 saxes during the production cycle. This and travel distances may have eliminated a few who otherwise might have done a better job of engraving.
....

How much do you think it costs to ship by truck 40 saxophone bells?

 

[skeller047]

If they had brought this horn out at $3500 they would all be gone now. (Maybe they are anyway…) I really think the outrageous price is the driver of these ConnVersations. It’s why everyone is having a Conniption fit.

I actually look forward to a competent review, and hope I get to play one sometime. And I hope it’s a precursor to them actually bringing the Conn name back. More good saxophones equals more better world.

 

[turf3]

Let me ask you this: What proof do you have for your claims that:

Which claims are you talking about? I know that typical imputed labor+overhead in the US (and Elkhart is not a high COL area) runs around $100 an hour. In China or Taiwan, around $50. (It's the "overhead" that's relatively invariant: tooling costs about the same everywhere, machine tools cost the same, raw material costs the same, electricity about the same. Direct and indirect labor hourly costs are the major variable, but those are typically well under half the total of imputed labor+ overhead.)

The rest of it, about the design, is from what Conn-Selmer themselves have said.

 

[Ghr9204]

How much do you think it costs to ship by truck 40 saxophone bells?

Per Yandex A.I.:
Saxophone engraving is typically done at the end of the manufacturing process. This stage follows the assembly of the body, which includes fastening the plate assemblies that support the keywork and accessories to the neck, body, bow, and bell. After the engraving is completed, the keywork is attached to the instrument, and each key is individually adjusted and checked for leakage. 1 2

5 sources​

1. yamaha.com 1
2. selmer.fr 2
3. wikipedia.org 3
4. saxproshop.com 4
5. sax.co.jp 5